241. Armageddon Launch Hype!

To celebrate the launch of 11th ed 40k Phil is joined by  Richie and discuss everything which led up to the launch, from pre-painted terrain, area terrain layouts, the new 40k app, and trying to work out just what your Force Disposition actually means.

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/mkrtb2z6X2o

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Hello, this is episode two hundred and forty-one of the Council Podcast. My name is Philip, and joining me today will be Richard in the next segment. So we can talk about Warhammer 40k, the launch of the Armageddon box. If you are listening today, at the time of launch, the box that should be out today. Hey. So we're going to be talking about the build-up of the hype. I think that Games Workshop has done from that initial trailer video all the way through to this week. The build-up to the Armageddon launch box and basically discuss what they've done right, discuss what they've done wrong, criticise a few things here and there, and then praise Games Workshop for when they've done a pretty good job. So that is the episode for this week. I hope you enjoy it. And then stick around for the end. There'll be a little bit of bonus chit-chat at the very end. Let's get on with the show, with a classic transitional noise.

Armageddon Hype

SPEAKER_01 1:23

So in this part of the episode, we're talking about the Warhammer 40k launch. Has it been any good in terms of the build-up and the hype? Has it made sense to us as consumers? And in this part, I'm joined by Richard, the ever cynical gay player. Is that the reputation I have now? I should check, I should check in the Patreon. I would have thought so, but who knows? Everyone's been positive so far. But yeah, how are you doing quickly? Are you having a good time?

SPEAKER_02 1:49

I'm having I'm having a good a good time. I I'm I'm still rec I mean I'm still recovering from surgery, but I've been keeping up with all the the 40k news for this new edition.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Exactly. And I believe if the pre-order is correct, I think today, the day this episode goes out, which is the day after actually we're recording or no, a couple of days later, because it's Thursday today. Saturday this comes out. The boxes should be available. Did you buy an Armageddon box, Richard?

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Did I buy I did buy an Armageddon box? And I I don't yet have one because I didn't buy from a retailer who broke the street date.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

But no, same. So I got mine from Element Games. I'm still patiently waiting for my uh copy being given to me on the official launch date. So um it is interesting. I've seen a lot of people online unboxing or selling bits of boxes or whole boxes well in advance of when people should actually have them. Which would be yeah, it's interesting that people have done it. But yeah, we've both got boxes, which is good. Um, and then we'll talk about the other stuff as it comes along.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

So we're gonna go through roughly I would I would just I always would like to say though, that I think is if people have got a hold of it early, awesome, good luck. I think that's that's fantastic luck for you. Good for you. Good for you. I do think that Gamesworks should do something about the fact that there are people there are people out there whose entire business is gutting the boxes and sending all the individual items who are shipping them to people before the boxes even come out, and people are receiving it before the product comes out. That's doesn't feel that feels wrong in every way.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

That's true. I mean that's fair. So our buddy Sean got uh one, I think it was like off a eBay, and he well not the box, he got a land speeder off of someone off of eBay, and he's he got his land speeder like a week ago. And it's like we were like, how has whoever's split that box got the box already? So it might may well be that these aren't individuals that like us that have purchased it from a third party or from Games Workshop. These are actual like wholesalers doing it on the sly when they're probably uh not meant to, which is interesting to see that um yeah, people have done it. I think Tim, it's currently his birthday. Happy birthday, Tim. He is he basically just bought the the campaign book, the law book, and the cards and the core rules, and I think he got his from Bits and Kits. Uh, because they're quite a good they do quite a good deal for splitting stuff down, and I remember I got the Leviathan stuff through them last edition. That's only really suitable if you're in the UK, to be fair. I don't think he's got his because I think they they do it all sort of above board, so to speak.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Do they?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

I don't know who bits and kits. I've no no I have no in interactions with bits and kits. I don't mean to cast any aspions. All I know is that there are some people who've got copies of the boxes early and are splitting them and sending everything individually.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yes, so I I assume Bits and Kits isn't like an official GW retailer because they don't have like a uh a bricks and mortar store, which is what you need to have to be a proper retailer, because you can't just be online. But these those sorts of people that are reselling it must clearly be very powerly with a bricks and mortar store that's like a third-party retailer, or it is a third-party retailer doing on the download, which I wouldn't be surprised is also happening to uh some extent somewhere, because it feels quite prevalent more so this edition than in previous editions.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah, because it's it's one thing for people like splitting the boxes and then you think, oh, that person, you can you can get you can buy all the individual parts of it. But when you but when the people who are doing that are shipping it out to people to receive a week before it comes out to the to normal people, that's not right. That ain't right.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

It feels a bit rubbish as some someone that's patiently waiting. Oh yeah, GW, sort it out. There you go. And on that note, we will start the the main topic. So we're gonna go through, do a quick whistle sock tour of the major Warhammer community articles where they've given us announcements in the order that they produce them, and then occasionally we'll stop and talk about um interesting things that we noted at that time or in hindsight, maybe. So the first one is the AdeptCon preview, where they gave us a really cool trailer, which we all liked. And we've discussed this bit already, so this bit we might skip over. As they gave us the trailer, then they gave us our somewhat uh diabolical previews of uh a model of the space marine, and then they were like, oh, and here's another model, an orc, which was a bit lackluster. I think the models look cool, but lackluster in terms of the models um that we were given. That orc was cool, Phil. What are you talking about? Well, the the model's cool, but the fact that you've only got one model and not several models or the entire box, and that we've had to wait some time. And there's been speculation about how they're trying to limit potential ED sculptors in terms of giving them too much lead time to produce designs that are knockoffs of these, and maybe that's one of the reasons why they're doing it. The other bit is the drip feeding of content to have constant reasons to be visiting Warhammer community, which is an odd metric, I guess you could say, because obviously Games Workshop don't make any money from people visiting the Warhammer community website, like they don't have advertising on there, but maybe it's like a KPI for them in terms of the more people visit their website over the course of the year, that's a better metric. So for them internally, so the people that run Warhammer community want to split this content out as much as possible to give you a reason to visit Warhammer community every day and not just once a week or once a month, for example. And I think that was it for this main initial article. Obviously, the trailer was cool. I assume you also thought it was pretty good. I don't think there's too much you want to say at this point, or is there Richie, have you got some comments?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I don't know. Let's just scroll down. Do they talk about area terrain objective markers in here?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

No, not yet. I think that that did that did come a bit as part of one of the articles. We'll definitely talk about it towards the end, I think, when they go through it in uh a bit more detail. Uh and then the first thing we got was the first of I think two kind of Q ⁇ A's. So these were videos. If I just quickly play it. Oh, this was this was the four-minute one, and then I think they did like an hour-long Q ⁇ A later on. So this just kind of clarified a few things for us in terms of what to expect. Which in a way, I don't know how much of this was deliberately planned, or they were like, oh, we've not just given we've not given people enough info and loads of people are asking questions, so I guess we better quickly put out a QA for people.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

If if it wasn't planned, they did uh they did a good job of collating questions and putting out relatively quickly.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Um one of which does talk about objective markers being officially over, so they go, objective markers are no longer circular, instead, you're going to be fighting over terrain. But they say bunkers, ruins, relics for a more narrative and immersive game, it ends up being sort of rubble for putting ruins on top of. But they don't give us any previews of that just yet. They talk about how spectrum is. They probably had trouble finding stock to photograph ill. That's probably what it was. Spoilers, spoilers, but yes. Um, yeah, so they talk about stratagems and how you can't stack them. They talk about uh close combat having tweaks about how I presume it's like how piling works, pilots first, things like that. And they also mention that the 40k app gets updated, which we will get into in more detail later on. So it's interesting that straight away they've had to do a little kind of clarification of a few things. Then the next thing is uh some of the model releases, like the individual ones. So whenever there's been done something they've done repeated, I've not obviously got every single page, I've just got like the first one that they've done. So the first one was the boss knob, as like the main sort of solo model that they've given us. Fantastic mini, looks really good. And then throughout the course of several weeks, they've been showing off more models, individual characters, some of the units and things like that. So again, more direct feeding of content, which is and yeah. I mean, I think that worked quite well in terms of how they revealed uh it over a bit of time, Richie. Or would you rather it just been in like one big live stream video?

SPEAKER_02 9:41

I would have rather have had all the information at once. That's just me. And for the well, for the for those in who who talks or who talk to me uh personally about this stuff, will know that I don't care for the drip feeding model. It's like I especially when it especially when it comes to rules. I don't mind whether it's like here's the space marines or here's the orcs. When it comes to like the how we play the game, still don't r haven't really had that. Here's how all the systems work together. Because each day is a different little bit of the information, a different little bit of information. At least now we are almost pretty much at our point with the app where all the rules are in one place now. So you can see how all the all the changes are working and how actually a game is played now. I d yeah, I d I wasn't really a big fan of how they drip better. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah, that is that's completely fair, I think. The next up that they showed us was the terrain objectives, making the battlefield your own. Uh, and they sort of explain how it works with this lovely graph in terms of the footprint of the actual area, how ruins go on it, and how units can score. But I think in this video, they still don't actually preview what the airy terrain actually looks like. I think they might have teased it in perhaps one of the videos at this point, but even though it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

There's a link there, there's a link for on the video.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

No, scroll down, scroll down. Our terrain article earlier this week.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yes, there you go. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

What does that look down this terrain features? They talk about how hidden works and how obscuring works. They talk about some of the cards and how things like booby traps work, which I think maybe I'm gonna interesting. But then they talk about some of the maps.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

But yeah, they still don't show it off. Uh, but this is the article that does give you the um actual measurements. So this is where people were starting to get the actual measurements and starting to make their own um from scratch. So you get four large rectangles, two large right angled triangles. So these are sort of triangles, but there's a sort of a little notch on one of the corners. Um and when we get to the terrain, we can look at that. You get four medium rectangles, two long lines, and four short lines. So you get quite a lot of pieces, which is interesting. And then I think uh there's a few places later on where we look at the map, so we can talk about that in a little bit as well. And then after all of that, we actually get a what's in the box. So this is where we get the big reveal show showing us all the models from the entire box, um, all in one go, which was quite an impressive live stream. I think you pointed out, Richie, that even at this point they still hadn't given you a show me one individual picture with everything in the box. Instead, what we have here is obviously a picture of the box, a picture of all the models in the box, but and then a like a broken down image of like all the individual things by faction. But there's no picture showing off the cards, the books, the models all in one big like beauty shot.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yeah, there was I mean, I saw I saw some people talking about uh about speculating on the cost of everything. I tried to avoid that. I don't think that was a uh like a necessarily the best use of a conversation because but I think it was could have been avoided if Kings Oakshop just had an image of here's everything in the box, which they hadn't, for whatever reason, they hadn't released it at this point. They I think they finally released it when pre-orders went live.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yes, yeah. So I think it was only only finally then. So it sort of made you wait a long time. And it did keep making me go, is the area terrain going to be in the box? Because it's such a fundamental part of the gaming experience. Why wouldn't it be in the box? But then I was like, I remember they talking about the area terrain, but not in these like articles specifically to do with what's in the box, and that's because it is a uh just something that they're selling out, set selling separately, which I I feel like is personally is a bit of a misstep. But yeah, so what you get is the in addition to the models, you get the core rules, the dominatus cards, which is like the campaign sort of system, chapter approved cards, and then the um individual data sheets, like the physical ones for the models uh themselves. So, but yeah, as you say, that they're all just separate images and not in one big product shop. But yeah, I think at this point it was still pretty good. There was a lot of subhype, everyone was loving the models, but there was still a lot of ambiguity in terms of we don't know what the rules are. They hadn't really explained what the Dominatus deck was, and even still, I don't think they've given us too much info about what that is. And then things like chapter approved still haven't sort of got into people's hands fully, unless you've obviously managed to get one of those copies of the box before the allocation, because that's not actually uh out yet. Then what we got was the faction focuses, which was these uh videos breaking down the individual factions. These were done by like was it not Adam, the other one. One of the guys plus an American guy hyping up all the competitive natures and the combos around each faction and talking about all the kind of cool new detachments basically. Because ultimately the game itself, in terms of the codexes, isn't really changing. There'll be some updates here and there, but for the most part, your codex is still the same. But the where where the like the juicy new stuff for an individual army is all in the detachments, right? So obviously we got these. This one's specifically talking about uh space marines, but obviously everyone else got theirs individually as well. So did you watch any of these, Richie? Did you like have any thoughts about them? Because I I what I found actually really weird about them, if I can interject really, is this is where they actually talked about some of the pr some of the actual rules were being explained in the faction focuses, because we hadn't had the core rules at this point, and they would explain some of the core premises in these faction focuses, which I found very odd, because then it made me have to watch them all to see if there was any juicy nuggets about rules changes.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Okay, you watched a couple of them. I wasn't the biggest fan of the style of them for me, but I I I think you're right, because I think we were talking about it at the time because it was the I believe it was the Space Marines focus where Ingress was first like really talked about.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yes, that was what that meant.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

I mean, I I don't know if there were other other rules that were like that were like hidden away. I wouldn't be surprised if there were.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

But I said, I think things like snapshooting was maybe mentioned in one of these. And yeah, I'm just trying to think what the other rules were. But yeah, there was a few like here and there. They talked, I think maybe in Beneck Bond's one, they talked about like the revive mechanic. Yeah, the uh and uh I think I'm pretty sure another one either talked about um the uh was it close quarters, which is pistols, but also the equivalent of hammer of wrath, which is you know, when you charge in now you do mortals, but you don't just have to be a vehicle, you can be a monster as well. I think they maybe talked about that in one of the chaos ones, uh perhaps. So yeah, there were just these sorts of little rules occasionally that they would just bring up, and you'd be like, cool, you're like giving us the context to it now, but personally it's like if you had explained all of these mechanics beforehand, then you can just talk about them in these faction focuses rather than bring them up in the faction focus and also explain the rule at the same time, um, which is odd. Because I think if as you're because most people I think would just watch the faction focus to do with their own faction that they collect, they wouldn't sit through and watch them all. So it's yeah, it just felt really weird that people would miss out on these kind of specific rules previews that would be quite useful to know. Um but they were missing out on them because it wasn't relating to their own faction that they collect.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Assuming that I mean, assuming if that that's what they did, then yes, I would agree. I mean, I if it was supposed to be good to know if there's anyone who doesn't collect space moons, who didn't watch the space moon focus, because that's where they that's where they reveal the world about how it an ingress movie is and how that works. Because I only watched, I think I watched some of the Space Moons one. I might have uh watched the Orcs. I definitely read most of the articles for the factions which are relevant to me. Yeah. Like I re I I read the The Orc one, I read the Space Moon's one, and I read the Chaos Knight one because of blocking the Chaos Knights. Rel with mod with moderate success to failure with them. But yeah, I was I didn't I wasn't reading every single faction focused. So if there was if there were some certain rules that were not included, I would have missed it. But in full disclosure, I was I was actively trying to not read too many of the rules because I was waiting for them all to be available at once so I can just be, oh, here's how all these rules work and this is how they interact with each other. Rather than as I said before, the the drip feeding it way of doing it, whatever they were whatever their rational for doing that was is not one that I that I'm a fan of.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I I mean I s I can see how it could work because basically you want to appeal to two types of people. The people that are desperate to know absolutely everything and will even if it's out of context. Like his rapid ingress, okay, cool, but I don't know what any uh of the other rules mechanics are around that, maybe. You do appeal to those people, but then the people that are probably more like us that want to see everything call in one go, in a way it's like, okay, cool, maybe we would just skip over these because you're like, okay, cool, you give me a faction focus, but it's like half the rules. And I'm pretty sure there have been sometimes or they've mentioned a specific rule and they've not actually talked or explained what it is until much later on. So yeah, it's a bit odd that they do it. Uh I'm sort of someone that's just sort of happy to wait and then go, okay, cool, let me read it all in one go and understand it. And the weird thing is when we get to the actual core rules that was odd is obviously they didn't have all the rules there, but now they finally updated the app. It's like, well, I can't remember what the things are that I wanted to look up over time work. So now I've now I've got to basically reread the core rules or at least go through the PDF, find the things that they say these are in the app, and go off to the app and read them for extra context. And I guess maybe if I'm once I'm finally ready to play a game, I I will do that as like a as a as a read-through. But yeah, the faction focuses were sort of interesting. Um yeah, they they're sort of this is where the meat and potatoes are, I think, for the majority of um the factions, like getting any kind of update or boost. Um I am still convinced that the detachment concept is sort of probably way more overcomplicated than other additions have been. But the difference is is before there was a relatively high level of complexity, but you needed to know everything. Whereas with this, is like you need to read everything and then decide which detachment to pick, and then from that you have a very narrow focus of rules that you need to actually learn. But there's more like upfront load in terms of all these detachments that you need to read to understand, to therefore decide which sort of play style you want to go through. And uh, and then that'll be more complicated even further when we get to forced dispositions towards the end of this video, because that's a whole extra section that you also need to like read and understand before you can even sort of just go with the detachment, which is a bit of a chicken and egg uh sort of scenario. In terms of what else they gave us as well, so let's skim through some of these. So they gave us the combat patrol companion, uh they announced, which has actually, I think, which is quite good, a bunch of hobby sections in addition to the actual chapter approved. Oh, this is where they also finally give us the area terrain sets and show us what they look like. Uh so you can here see here, here's the sort of strange half triangle with the kind of corner not quite cut out, um, and that they're sort of double-sided. Which is again an interesting thing that they keep saying it's double-sided, but I've only ever seen pictures of this one side. So I don't actually know what the other side looks like.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

So what would you imagine it looks like on the other side?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

I would sort of hope it's more just like sort of dirt or something and something different, right? Yeah, something different.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Because that would make sense if it's gonna be one colour on one side. Well, I say my my I had the same assumption. From what I've read in articles, it's exactly the same on the other side. Now, I don't know which I which yeah, but only the the reason you haven't seen the other side is because it looks exactly different.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

It's the same, it's not even like a different colour.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Nope. As far as I'm aware, from what I've read, it's exactly the same on the other side. So that's why because yeah, because it it's the same. of the we'll probably get on to this because they have released PDFs of these and there they and there is no alternative uh there's no alternative design. It's just the other now that could now for the triangular pieces the well I'll say triangular. I mean yeah these ones it it it would it could make sense why they are the same because they all flip. I mean if you flip it if you flip it over you've got a different shape trying for a different for where you want to put it on the board. You've got because you you either if you've you've either got an L but for the but that's just for the L sh for the I'll call L shapes for the sake of argument. But for the rectangular ones and the squares and the little like long thin ones they're the same.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Well we don't really think it's a bit on the little rubble patches right so the rubble patches I guess you could have in different positions which are technically still part of the objectives which I think they are so weird.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

They those rubble patches to me are so weird that you've got this little towing out of the objectives what for what counts as the objective. I just think that's I just think that's really weird that that's the case unless it's designed to make it feel more organic rather than just a square but it also feels kind of a little bit weird.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah well it almost feels like they made physical versions of these and as part of that they have these extra rubble piles spilling out to help it blend in with the sort of the board and things like that. But then they've gone well we need to sort of still incorporate these into the design because it feels like they've just photographed them and sort of stitched them together and things like that. So it sort of works if you had a physical version that was three-dimensional these the rubble piles would look fantastic but they look very odd on a flat piece of terrain especially when you're including that as yeah the actual objective because in my mind it's like well the square bits are the actual objective and these are extra just decorative bits added on. But then what's more confusing is most people seem to have carried on this design in the third party objectives which we can look at later because I've got a few examples up even though they they haven't done it exactly correct they've sort of just taken that kind of the thematic element of a little bit of rubble sticking out and but it's not like one-to-one to the to the game's workshop style. But yeah it's uh it's an interesting concept I think. Yeah okay cool let's I I'd note also so we can I'll mention it now. So when it comes to the combat patrol um when it comes to that they've updated the app I've seen people say that they've actually removed a lot of the combat patrol rules from the app now. Um but as I don't play it I've not looked. I think it's a lot of the specific uh like data sheets rather than the actual rules. So I think they've given you the the rules but not the like detachments um which I think is quite interesting that they've taken that away from the new app. I assume there's a particular reason for that. Oh and then they were just saying that you can um also buy individually the core rules and then the Dominatis and the chapter approved mission deck. And that's all you know quite sensible kind of standard to what they do. And similarly I think I talked about before when they when the Armageddon box eventually came onto pre-order they talked about that you can buy these bits separately but they they get to even now talk about the sort of the starter sets that we normally get which is where they take elements of the Armageddon box or the Leviathan box and split them down to slightly smaller value proposition boxes. So it's like maybe you're getting one character and a couple of units and there's normally like a scale of like one to three size boxes. There's a very small box with core rules there's a medium sized box and there's a large one containing various amounts of what will be space beans and orcs but in the previous edition it was space beans and uh tyranids and we've still not got that yet like they sort of keep that hidden to make everyone I guess buy the armaged a box as much as possible. Then we get a bit of talk about the Dominatus deck. It's again still not hugely in detail in terms of what it does but it sounds like you can just link together missions via like this kind of mini campaign and that you can get um bonuses uh later on it sounds like you get your force disposition opponents disposition and then these are the effectively the missions that you'll be playing which is kind of basically how the um uh sort of regular kind of card deck system works and but I think this is slightly different and you get your actual missions that you're playing a camp a campaign system on cards gives me horrible flashbacks to dark water that's all I'm gonna say. Right okay I don't think it's necessarily as bad as that.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

It sounds like it might be really good. It might be it might be a really good easy way to play a campaign together.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Yeah the last thing the the last campaign I did with cards was dark water and that we know well we you know both know how that went yeah there there were some odd mistakes in that I think but I think with this one it sounds like they've sort of simp they've taken some of the elements of crusade and I think this comes later on in terms of what they talked about. Oh talk about it here like they've they because they've gotten rid of crusade completely but they've taken elements of crusade and applied it here so you can get like a card which you can apply to a unit which is like a buff so you can give it some extra experience but it sounds like it's a like a one-off bonus for that one mission. It's not ongoing experience so you don't need like a separate sheet to write down uh oh you know oh my characters now got 20 experience points so he's plus one weapon skill he's got like three extra abilities he's got a relic and that's a lot of bookkeeping so they've tried to sort of minimize that as much as possible. And it feels like some of the core premises of how these missions come together might be very similar to like the Armageddon crusade book that I talked about in a previous uh episode where there's like a sort of beginning middle end in terms of like your your missions or maybe it's you know three missions it might be five missions but you sort of link them together and you have each person has like sort of an agenda they're trying to achieve over that the course of that campaign. So it sounds like there's similar things but again they've not talked about it too much even there. But it feels like potentially a halfway house between people who want narrative stuff, people who just want to play match play games but a way of linking them together so it's a little bit more narrative without too much bookkeeping and something you could potentially just do in a weekend or so it could be like an event for example. So I'd be I'd be keen to give it a go, I think. I I guess Richie is that something you'd be interested in at some point? Campaign?

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah because I think I think I think if they've made if if they've I've all running a campaign of any game is is not easy. It requires a lot of bookkeeping and and like organization. If they have if this Dominant deck does and enable that to be a lot more straightforward for people and easy then I'm all I'm I'm all I'm all for that. So I mean it it's in it's in the Armageddon box.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

So well exactly so we've got it so everyone's gonna have yeah everyone's gonna have access to that.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

They're not gonna have they're not gonna have access to objective to the area terrain pieces, but they will have the Dominantist deck. And that is true.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yeah I was gonna say I think in hindsight I prefer having campaign books rather than decks of cards because over the course of the last few editions it's like I've got like let's say between four or five maybe even six decks of cards from the last two editions of 40k from all the chapter approved it's like they take up a lot of space because they're quite chunky. They're sort of small but chunky but they're not easy to sort of store in the same way that books are on a bookshelf. So in a way it's like I prefer my campaign systems to just be book based because it's easier to keep them afterwards. Whereas cards are just like a bit of a faff. They're not great space savers. But I can understand the appeal of like you know you can create stuff like you can shuffle them together, you deal things out to people like those elements are like the actual playing element is probably more fun via card based, especially if you only need a few cards to like run a mission rather than having a book that doesn't you know lie flat and you know you've got to find the pages and stuff whereas having a couple of cards in front of you is a lot more handy. In terms of long-term storage I think a sort of a book uh wins out. Then then onto more terrain so this was based on a leak we had the um pre-painted terrain that they had shown off which is very interesting because they gave it to us in this one video where they show off a prepainted terrain and they also actually show us the orcs, the orc bikes which they kind of confirmed are legit because I think they show them off later on in a preview. So that you know the orcs that are coming for the sort of the orc way for when that codex comes they first appear in this video. We get to see pre-painted terrain everyone talks about pre-painted terrain for a good week or two. I guess this is our chance now to talk about prepainted terrain. But it's gonna games workshop's not shown them off in any way they don't show them off in any of their videos when they do Gen Con or the Birmingham con in the UK they don't show them off there. When they do the live streams to show off the new rules they don't show them there they use the Warhammer TV stuff and that caused a lot of confusion because people are saying well this prepainted terra's really good and it's like yeah because that's not prepainted train that's just painted terrain but it's the same terrain that's been painted.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

I've all on for the record I've also seen stories which are the opposite way around which is people are saying this pre-painted terrain isn't very good. It's not as detailed and then the response I think this is one of the shows someone said this pre-painted terrain isn't as good and the response was that's not the pre-painted terrain that's been painted by the studio team to be in this cabinet today. Yeah yeah it's it's it's it's a bit unc it's a bit confusing as to what actually it is I think it's been revealed because I'm assuming because it's it leaked somewhere so they've had to really select you know it is a thing but it's not any coming it's not coming anytime soon or if it is they don't want they don't remotely want to they didn't want to talk about it. Yeah so they want you to figure out Armageddon Armageddon that's all you need to care about.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Exactly because I sort of feel like if they were gonna talk about it they would have had every single thing just be the prepainted train and that kind of makes more sense right that they go cool here's prepainted train it's a thing and then every single version of in all the videos in all the like yeah in all the games that they're playing uh on Warham TV or on live streams or tournaments should all just be using that prepainted train as the push to promote it as much as possible. And they've kind of done the opposite where they've almost gone uh yeah don't look at that prepainted train it's here but this isn't it this is the regular painted train look at this instead which makes me go is that because they don't want to talk about it or because the prepainted train's not that good I would I would think it's more that it's just not ready and it's not it's well not it's not ready.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

It's like it it one thing we know is that get is that the approach that um games which are taking to marketing is that they like to you they like to their marketing is basically how many articles can they make on get on Mohammed community. So right now they haven't got any space because all they're talking about is Armageddon. So it doesn't make sense for them to talk about it now. They'll have they will have a content plan for when they roll it to train there'll be a slot when it's about to come out. It doesn't make any sense to talk about it now. I think it's cool they did a video rather than just having like a potato cam. In in a like a potato cam or something. Yeah it felt to me like a respon like a response similar to when I'm trying to think I remember like A Blackness or something recently was like was um Angwan was one of the big leagues I remember in recent years where Angwan's a thing. I I think it was Angwan thing. And then they've really and then so they've released the image or and or there was like the orc boss as well. It's like oh we're gonna release the actual image so we can confirm it's a thing. For this it feels like they had they had a video to go or they may quickly made a video just to say yeah this is real. So either they've used a video already or they made something quickly with a quick turn line in which case good good yeah good job guys. It's it looked pretty cool and because it's it's a it's a great idea. Prepayment terrain is a great idea but I don't think they need to talk about it whatsoever right now. Because for us like it's like uh I I won't go into more details on this one because if we're talking about 40k there's a new edition there's like a new a new edition of AOS coming out or like the new general handbook of AOS is coming out like is is is is up for pre-order today if you're what if you're listening to this on Saturday. But they've barely talked about it because and it makes sense why because Armageddon is the focus that that Armageddon the new edition of 40k is the biggest thing that Games Workshop has and will be releasing four years di four years and it's happening right now.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

So that's what their focus is going to be so I'm not surprised at all that they have they've mentioned it, they've confirmed it's a thing and they're gonna go quiet until it's actually the time when it is going to be yeah so because I remember in terms of prepainted train Dan and myself were at Salutes I think two years ago now and we saw prepainted train for some kind of dungeon crawler. And so you could see it was like painted on directly onto the sprue obviously you can clip it off uh and it's like I think it's called like UV painting and there's uh a few YouTube videos talking about that process and I think it's been roughly confirmed that it's a similar thing. So it's really hard wearing it's uh it gets painted on and then UV light sort of seals it in place in some way. So you can kind of scratch it and it doesn't like flake off or anything like that. It sort of sets almost like hard you know j nail gels or something from what I'm vaguely aware of how how that works sort of does a similar thing. But the quality I don't think is that great it's got a very speckled paint effect and I think that's just in terms of how it gets you know it's automated in terms of the the the the nozzle sort of splats it out and it gives it a very sort of specular type of effect on it which up close I don't think is particularly good and part of me feels like the videos do a very good job of almost like hiding that fact from it and that's why we haven't got some like really good crystal clear up close uh shots or anything like that. So it'll be interesting to see what it's finally like when it's actually out there. I think some of the like like the lightning effects sort of look okay but then some of a they're a bit too heavy handed on the OSL in terms of like the glows of the the lamps and stuff like that. And but then things like the data pad screens are quite interesting. And they have also confirmed that you can buy it without painted so you can get it unpainted. And I think the real interesting bit will be the price point at which those two sets sell at like how much more expensive will be the pre-painted one. Because I love the idea of painting my own terrain but I just never get time to do it.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

I would guess you're in a minority and that that's why this product exists in that most I think so don't want most people most people don't paint terrain because most people just paint their armies and they take it somewhere. So the I have I have like some small amounts of terrain I've got for one for playing like very small games but which I painted myself very proud of myself I did that I mean it was during COVID so I didn't have much else to do but a lot of people want to play for UK but having like nice looking terrain that they have them that they they don't they just don't have the time to I mean I'll put some part of it down to time like the time investment to do it. We'll see if if there's a monetary investment to it as well because when there's launches it won't be cheap because it will have because warmer terrain isn't cheap.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Oh as crazy expensive as it is for like a whole terrain a whole table's worth of terrain would probably from a normal games workshop like if you're buying the bits individually for the runes would be several hundred pounds. I hope it's not quite as expensive as that but I also wouldn't be surprised based on the amount of terrain it is I think one point to make about why it's so difficult to paint is that there just there's just so much detail on it. Like even uh the the standard runes it's just like details with loads of skulls like exhaust pipes like whether it's like barbed wire or data sort of screens and interfaces um you know ventilation shafts all that sort of things exist on those really basic walls basically and it's like if you're trying to paint up all of those things individually it's it's it would be a nightmare whereas most people I think sort of spray it mostly the same colour. Maybe they pick out a few things maybe they do the metal trim and the and and the stone and they have the two colours and that's kind of it and they do like a wash or a rust effect on it or something to speed things up. Because if you try and do a thing individually it'd be a nightmare. I think the one time I would have been really down for this is the boarding actions terrain because the boarding actions for 40k is like a double set of terrain and it's also highly repetitive in terms of the wall designs. So that would be I think and I've not yet got round to it myself but I think when I get round to painting it it will be just really boring and quite laborious. So having that all pre-painted would be like a a no-brainer for me. I think something like that I think would have worked better than this. But I'm glad they're doing it. I think it will be interesting. It will probably make people go, well when are we gonna start getting miniatures prepainted and they talk about that in the second QA where they go we won't be doing that. But it does open the door for people to be like but why not?

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Because you can clear I do disagree with you though Phil I think making prepainted terrain for the five people who play boarding actions is not a good business decision whereas making pre-painted terrain for everyone who plays no shade no shade no shade on people playboarding actions but it is I would say it is definitely not the more popular no form of the game.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

But I can see why I mean why it'd be more helpful because it's harder to paint like if they did prepainted Necromunda terrain okay because I I want to do I want to help our our buddy Mike with a Necromonda campaign late this year and you need lots of you need lots of terrain before Necromonda but with that you almost want to be able to customize it and convert it and I don't maybe that'd be a lot harder to do with the prepainted stuff and because it's designed to be so modular the Necromunda stuff.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Well wait I think I think the prepainted terrain is a really good idea because most people most I would guess that the the a m a large amount I don't want to say majority of 50% I don't know how much it is but there is a I think there is a significant percentage of players who struggled who getting their army painted is struggle enough. Yeah and and a f like and and a bit like a financial time based thing enough. So having a solution for a a group so I don't think I I don't think every individual person is going to buy I don't think the intention is that every individual person is buying a complete pre-painted range. That's like for a group of people or for their news or what have you for who I mean I think it's gonna be a more specialized release. I don't think it's I don't I don't feel this is aimed necessarily at every single gamer because most gamers I mean it might be it might really pop off and do incredibly well but most people most people like to have their army painted and and getting their army paint they want to play but they want to play on good looking terrain. So like whether I mean I wouldn't be surprised if this is more they like a group banding together to purchase it. Something like that. But I think it's really it's a really really cool thing because it means that anyone any group of players can now have really nice looking terrain like I mean I should not say it is it is really nice looking terrain that you can play with that's all that comes already painted.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

That's yeah it just makes being able to play on a good looking table a lot easier. My one kind of concern with this is that we will start to see because I doubt this is really going to be used by events unless they're somehow really loaded but like I just hate the idea that I would go to a gaming store or round to a friend's house and then they come round to mine and then I go down to the local gaming club and we're literally all playing on the same terrain because everyone's gone well we're using these area terrains for objectives and this is the official set designed for that and it's pre-painted so it's a no-brainer. So it's like cool on every single table I play in 40k now will be these exact same Imperial themed ruins that is exactly identical because this is the sort of the one kit that everyone's buying like it's a cool concept I think it would be great if Games Workshop could produce several different themed sets of different area terrain that they could produce. That would be very cool as well so it's like oh there's a Tau themed one there's a tyranny themed one there's a maybe a variant Imperial one. Now I can't necessarily see them doing that but I just yeah would worry that it would sort of stagnate the system by everyone buys this because it's so popular and therefore every time I'm playing 40k it's mostly on this sort of terrain set.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

It can't it would still I I I do I think that is a very valid concern. I do think it will still be better than the old days of L-shaped MDF and giant pie plates on board.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

No completely that's fair. That's fair it is it's definitely better than that. But I here's the thing I'd probably buy this because it'd be or the unpainted one maybe let's say because I it goes well it's just ready made for me I can just pop it down I can get a mat and I'm done and then I've got all this really cool interesting unpainted terrain that I maybe want to build or I've got loads of you know Sector Mechanicus stuff that I could maybe make fit this area terrain. But then will I put any time and effort into it when I've just got this sort of ready made to play and then it's maybe that's more of a me problem than a then problem but it just sort of the barriers to entry for using this is so much lower it's sort of disincentivizing me from doing the slightly harder hobby job of making cooler and interesting terrain but yeah um yeah that's maybe something I need to work on. Anyway let's move on to whatever let's go back to talking about arm again. Yes exactly oh so this was the second lot of QA's that they did which was a much longer one where they had loads of questions sort of messaged in that they answered. One of them was yes they are doing unpainted versions of the prepainter train um I think they did quite a good job of answering lots of sort of general questions about 40k that people had but I think it also highlighted how little information they gave people that people were speculating on these sorts of different things and that this was even needed. I felt like they didn't do quite a good job as say I remember the I think it was either eighth or ninth edition where they gave us our tanks are back and they gave us this like bullet pointed, you know, top ten changes in TK. I think that was the ninth edition one. And that did quite a good, like, you know, top-down, really breezy overview of the major changes. And I feel like they haven't really done anything like that for this edition, which is why people had all these like nippicky QA stuff.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

I think that's for the best because I di I distinctly remember in the in that list of bullet points was there'll be less command points and less re-rolls. Less re-rolls points. Was one of those bullet points that they talked about, which turned out to be not entirely as accurate as they probably won't be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

The game will be less lethal or something. I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Yeah, I think they I think there was, if anything, I would say it was almost like they if I was them, I would have looked back on that on 9th edition and realised that they they said a lot about in the pre-pre in the hype to the release of 9th of what it was going to be like and when all the walls came out and it's actually when all the walls started coming out and people started playing it, it turned out that oh actually that's not quite what we envisaged that would mean. So I think the way I think it's good they've done these Q ⁇ A's. I thought it was it was an interesting piece of content in the QA because it could have been at 30% shorter if they took out the stupid questions. No offense, some of those questions. Yes, some of them were either jokey or a bit silly, but I think you could understand why you would need to include those. Because some people, because it's sometimes some like there are so there's such a diverse audience of people who play 40k, that some people do need to something's clarified. So something that I think, oh that's obvious, not everyone will feel the same way. So I think it's good that some that there are some that there's these very clear clarifications going on there. I think maybe it could have been shorter, but I thought it was an it was a good piece of content. I think I was I was painting something or watching it at the same time when it it came up because it it felt very balanced. It wasn't just like here is this whole, here is irresistible, here's this. It felt like a nice balance between more community questions, law questions, and like the game. It was a good good cross-section of the kind of of the questions in there. So I thought it was a nice piece of content.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah, some of them were like uh what chapters are uh available playing on Armageddon, because I want to theme my space meetings too there. They did just sort of law questions like that around Armageddon and and things like that, which I thought was uh pretty good. But as you say, some of them got a bit either repetitive or sort of so obvious, it's like it didn't really feel like it needed to be said. But overall I thought it was pretty good. Then we get the individual, I think this is like the rules previews for the models, the new models specifically in the box set. So we got the uh eradicator squad with heavy bolters, and I think in the QA that's when they clarified they are separate data sheets because they've got their own abilities, so they're not just generic eradicators, it's now eradicators with uh melter rifles and then eradicators with heavy bolters. So here they obviously preview them. You get your bolt pistol with its close quarters keyword now rather than pistols. You've got your heavy bolter, which has heavy and sustained hits one, which is your standard, your three shots, strength five, minus one AP, two damage. But the cool rule that they get is overlapping detonation. So in your shooting phase, when this unit is selected to shoot, you can select one non-monster or vehicle enemy unit visible to it, and then basically your heavy bolters get blast one, which is per model. So that is just an extra three shots for your three guys, assuming they're all alive. But that could obviously go up much more if you you know against a 20-man unit, you're getting an extra uh three shots, no, four shots per model. So that's uh a a lot of extra shots. So they did these rules previews, I thought it was quite interesting. Some more relevant than others, like this one, which is a brand new unit. Sometimes it was like the York Boys, and the you know, the rules haven't changed a whole lot more. Did you find these quite kind of compelling articles or did you skim over them completely?

SPEAKER_02 47:45

I actually read these ones. Well, if these are the ones wait, I say that, if these were the ones where they released all the actual data sheets. I definitely read if it there was an article where at the bottom you could download all the new data sheets in one go. I read those ones.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

And I meant I might have I'm I don't know if it's the thing that came a bit later. I think this was initially just showing them off, and then at some point they're like, Yeah, you can download them all in one go.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

Okay, I think I definitely did read through some of I like skimmed these ones because this was quite interesting, because this is like, oh, here's new minis, here's new minis, and here's how those rules are gonna work. Like, how do eradicators, how do eradicators with heavy bolters work? This was quite interesting because it was quite compartmentalized if for here is new unit. You have seen new unit, how does new unit play?

SPEAKER_01 48:23

So this was quite cool because this was like it was like kind of confirmed within within the visual that's like, I I think there were some times where it's like, for example, pistol says close quarters, but it's like, okay, what does close quarters mean? Um obviously you can speculate that at this point it's that it just means pistols, but there was a few where they had specific rules in them. But it's like, okay, cool, I don't know what that means because they've not told us what these extra new uh, you know. What is I think so what special rules are.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

One thing that's slightly confusing, at least, is that from the now they've updated the app, we'll come on to this, I assume, at some point. But pistol is still like used for weapons and in that for science. So close quarters is is it it hasn't been like it doesn't appear to be like a smooth transition from no longer using pistol but using close quarters.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Yes, so I I worked this out when I I think the last episode where I went through the rules. The reason why they the rules specifically mention pistols and close quarters is because uh they can't invalidate all the old codexes and the old codexes will still say pistols. Obviously, the new ones will say close quarters when they update them. So the rules have to say both pistols and close quarters, but eventually, in theory, come say the next edition, they will just all say close quarters and they can get rid of the pistol reference. So it's just to make things backwards compatible, basically. Um that won't be confusing. No, I know. I guess in theory, you could say they could have just used the term close quarters, but then they would have had to have FAQ'd every single data sheet that has a pistol in it to say replace pistol keyword with close quarters.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Is there i is there any, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but is there any difference between pistol and close quarters or is it?

SPEAKER_01 50:01

No, it's the same thing. So so in the rules it says pistol slash close quarters, like it references them both together.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Well support I guess well I would okay, then I I I'm gonna assume then that means that there will be certain weapons which are not pistols, which can be used in close, which can be used in still be fired in combat. But in order, but someone was being pedantic and said, that's not actually a pistol though, is it? So I don't know why they use that, but so now it's gonna go with close quarters, so you can still use them. I it's just two interchangeable neurons, okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah, is is it's more generic. So yeah, you could have a monster or tank, for example, with a weapon that you could fire into combat without it being an actual literal pistol, uh, but still give it the same effects. But because all the old codexes still use the term pistol, the core rule still has to reference both, basically. Um, and there's a few examples of other rules as well where they reference it twice, I think, because it's like the new name plus the old name. Then we get into the Twitch stream of the esports event in Arlington, Texas, where it was like a 12, well no 13-hour marathon of going through I think three games of Warhammer 40k. Um, and this was the first live example of 40k where you could watch along. Uh they again don't use the pre-painted terrain, they use the Warhammer TV's version or a a a painted copy that they've manually done. And I maybe sat through around an hour or two of this and then I just sort of gave up because I sort of found it a bit boring after a while, and it's uh yeah, it just wasn't that interesting. Um, did you watch any of this, Regin?

SPEAKER_02 51:43

I did not have time. I I don't know if it was because of the time when it when it took place, but no.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Yeah, it was sort of interesting. They're obviously like explaining some of the rules as they went along, and they had it was basically your Armageddon boxes plus a bunch of other models that were similar, um similarly themes to make up to 2,000 points. So they had like a brutalis dreadnought, I think, you know, the classic Redemptor on the Space Marine side, uh, and then the Orcs had, you know, the the Copters and maybe a Batwagon or something. And I think there were some people complaining about like the either the units or how they were played. It just made me go, oh, this still feels a bit stale in terms of like you've got these staging points on the map, and you've got uh you're just poking out. And as I think within the first, it was either actually in this video or actually in one of the first faction focuses. As soon as someone says trading units, I just sort of switch off and go, Oh god, I hate this game so much. That it that's now what it's boiled down to is it's trading pieces, and it's like uh just even though if that's what it's always been, it feels like it's worse now when people are explaining it in such a uninteresting game mechanic term.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

I totally feel your pain on that one because that's not that's not the game that I've that I grew up with, I fell in love with, I still love. But it it but it's but if they are playing this is this was was this at at like a tournament? Like a tournament. This was presented in an esports format, so that's how in Texas, so it's um it is the American esports approach over here.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah, so I I think a tournament was happening at the same time, like the games workshop one, and then they were bolting on this preview for 11th edition as part of it. I think um I could be mistaken, but uh that's what I would assume they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

I I would have loved if they had like a beer to to use part of so our Americans would understand a beer and pretzels approach, which is like a couple people just playing the game in the in this in a studio, highlighting the diff uh just highlighting highlighting this is how the game plays now. If you feel if you're familiar with 40k, you may notice this was slightly different. That I mean which they may have done, and I haven't watched it.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Well, they did uh I've got it here somewhere, they did the Warhammer TV version, which was a bit more like that. Oh, which is this next bit. So they did a free battle report which showed it off. Um, and that was on Warhammer TV, but that it was available for anyone. Um I still didn't finish watching it all. I got maybe half an hour in, and then I was like, okay, cool, I sort of get the gist, but I'm not just that interested. And I think personally I'm just not a huge battle reports person, but I think they did a slightly better job of this showcasing some of the rules. But as you say, an even more kind of casual version where they're like explaining the changes between the two editions would have been a slightly more interesting approach, I think, for me personally. But then that's because we're players transitioning across, and to be fair, most people are transitioning across from 10th to 11th, they're not new players, but even so, I because I think one when they did that live stream one, I was saying to you and a few others, like, Oh, why haven't they given us the really dumbed down how-to-play version of the game, which was at one point done by this American lady, and then it was oh it's not Ed, I'm trying to think of his name. The main guy that normally does Warhammer community. Nick, so Nick did the last few, did like an edition where it's like him on his own going, This is how you play the game, this is the command phase, this is the shooting phase, and sort of explaining it through, and like a like a generic how-to-play video, I think would they still might feel, they still might. Yeah, because I don't think they've yeah, I don't think they've done a generic how-to-play video for this yet. So I sort of feel like that would almost be more helpful, or two distinct versions, right? Dumbed down version for completely new players, like this is a game of Warhammer. You've never played Warhammer before, this is how you play it, and then a transitional one, which is okay guys, you know how to play 10th edition. Here are the main changes between them, and we're gonna sort of roll it out on a tabletop so you can see the difference. I think that would be good, I think. Uh, because people, I think, just in general prefer consuming video media over reading a page, um, for example.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

I mean, I I think because they haven't what they what they games workshop haven't yet done really is the welcome to yeah, you are buying 40k for the first time. Like you are a new player. I I know there's a lot I see a lot of people talking about it online about how is this edition good for good for new players or not? This Armageddon box is not designed for new players.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Not well, no, that that's sort of what we were talking about before with the uh starter boxes, right? Like I think they talk about right pretty much said it last edition. It's like this is a launch box, not a starter box or starter set. And I think it was either last edition or the edition before where they sort of made that distinction in the name change. And they were like, This is the box to see in the new edition, that if we're honest, is mostly for seasoned players that want to get into the new edition, want to bulk up their army or start collecting a new one. It's not beginner-friendly, so it doesn't have dice in it anymore, or measuring sticks and things like that, that you need to have everything to play the game. As we mentioned, doesn't have objectives in it, so you can't play the game just from that box alone. Whereas a starter set, which has a couple of models here and there, has the rules, has some dice, has a measuring stick or something, maybe has the objectives in. Everything you need in one place to buy that, even if it's a limited model count, but get someone brand new into the game, they don't have to buy anything else outside of that one box, is something we do need to see from Games Workshop. And would be a good one.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

And Games Ocean and these and these do it, and Games Ocean has history of of that kind of s of that kind of skew to use the corporate terminology for it, because they they exist already. On the Warhammer website, they have got starter kits based around Temple Edition.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Some of them are still available to pre-order or buy. But I I would fully imagine that the after the launch of Armageddon, we will see the we will at some point between in the next month or so, because th those those those versions will come out ready for Christmas. Because that's when the most the most kind of that kind of product will be shipped, uh will be sold to people, and that's when we'll have you'll have like a that's when they're their marketing aim that new people will start. And that's when you'll have your you'll you'll have the starter editions, which will have the dice, they'll have measuring sticks, that you have a smaller version. I want to say that based on previous history, there would be some kind of terrain. Because I want to say that the Warhammer 40,000 starter set did not have terrain.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

But what did though was a there was a combat patrol starter set which did, or there's a was there still is the combat patrol starter set, and that does come with terrain.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Oh, because I was thinking of the kill team starter set that had uh Ultramarines and Death Guard in, and it had the MDF pre like printed terrain on it, which was sort of very reminiscent of a second dead terrain um that came in in that box, like it sort of just slots together, but it looked very nice to be fair. It was a bit simplistic, but that for a starter set I think would work well.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

It doesn't need to be fancy plastic terrain, I don't think I I would fully accept I send you, I sent you a link in case you wanted to pull it up as though, or just to look at the reference. But I would then I based on that, and if that was successful or not, I don't know. I would expect to see some kind of very basic starter set which doesn't have terrain, and a more advanced starter set, which is a bit more expensive, which would probably be a Blood Angels kill team. Oh sorry, combat a Blood Angels Combat Patrol and an Orcs Combat Patrol and a bit of terrain and your dice and yours measuring sticks and maybe not all the rules, but enough rules to be able to play that with.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

Yeah, oh right, yeah. So actually, yeah, the combat patrol starter set does actually include some uh terrain. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, so I imagine we'd get something like that with dice, with measuring sticks, with a form of terrain. Yeah, that's good. And I imagine I think we'd get something like that. Still hundreds of terrain.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

I mean that's not, but that's a you're getting essentially for that, you're getting some terrain, you're getting two combat patrols, you're getting I'm not trying to j and this isn't me trying to justify the the price point. This is me looking at why it's at that price point is you're getting two complete combat patrols, you're getting terrain, you're getting a bo you're getting a b uh a battle map, or is it is it a mat or a board? It doesn't matter too much because we're not talking about this, we're talking about um arm again. The point being is that Games Workshop have a history of they will launch a big edition, they'll have a big fancy new box with lots of new stuff in it, and then it will they'll have like more affordable editions, which are which are the ones designed to get new people into the game. Because there will cause there is still just a 40k starter set in general, which costs I mean there's not there's n there's multiple. There's a starter set, there's an introduction there's a starter set which is 70 quid, which comes with like six units and a board, no terrain. There's also an even well basic starter set for 40k, the introductory set, which is 40 quid, which comes with two units, and some terrain to play on, and some paints and some stuff. So it it games workshop will release various different introductory starter versions of this new edition to get which are aimed at new players, the people who have never played Warhammer before, who want to count wave jumping into it. That that that stuff will come. This initial this this Armageddon moment is I was a purely aimed at the m the is primarily aimed at the existing community of people who are playing who play 4K. Like the Armageddon box is like you want to get them you want to get the new Space Marines, you want to get the you want to get the new rules first, because you will technically get those books and cards one or two weeks earlier than if you didn't buy that box. Yeah, you'll get the first first first it was on the new minis for doing that. So that's like that that this is almost like the FOMO kind of box in that regard for Armageddon. So this this is just like the first release. There'll be more stuff coming down coming later of in in this 11th edition when it comes to like stuff for new players.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah, yeah, no, I think so. Um okay, cool. Let's move on. So we got spoiled with not one cinematic trailer, we actually got a second one. Um, this one was really interesting because it showed us um a little sort of snippet of every faction um in sort of animated form. It also showed us like the god emperor in his sort of heresy era when he was alive, but also sort of in his current sort of dead uh version on the Golden Throne as the corpse emperor. I thought people on YouTube said he's still alive, you can see him moving. Yeah, I think that was just like either a flashback to when he was alive or when he was to me, it was more like that is the projection of him that people see him as, and the corpse version is what he actually is. But yeah, I did see some people saying, Well, he's clearly healing, he's regenerating, look, he looks much better in this bit, and it's like I I think you've missed the point, sadly. Um, and it was a lot of nods and references to like Rogue Trader and like old artwork of like John Blanche and stuff like that, um, of him as like the the corpse emperor um and on the golden throne. So yeah, I thought this was a really cool trailer. Did you have any thoughts on it, Richard?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

Well, it's fine. I was I thought it was cool. I don't think it was quite I didn't I didn't think it was quite cool as the first one. I didn't think it had like the the big kind of like narrative hook for me at least. I thought the the previous one was better.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

No, that's fair. I I thought it was a nice surprise. It didn't feel really like it was needed, but it was just sort of awesome that it was it was there and they done it and it was like a nice bonus, basically.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

It it's nice as a oh, it's not just orcs and space marines.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Yeah, I think it sort of gives you a bit more of a scope for this is encompassing everyone, and that there's a bit a bit more to it. Uh exactly. If you're not an orcs and a Marines player, here's something for you guys, which I think was uh very cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

It's also a good brand play, I would assume that it because if you at some point one imagines I'll be doing some more like m advertising or marketing around the new edition with this. This what this video shows is that they have videos of all the different factions that are available. So they'll have like really high, we really well-produced image uh visuals and and a video of all these different factions that they could use, not just aucs and space for when they do want to do like YouTube shorts or whatever, whatever it is. Assuming they have some kind of marketing campaign down coming down the down later for stuff. This is a really cool asset they have because they've got all the factions they can use.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

If they were really clever, potentially a lot of these were snippets of larger videos that they produced for when those codexes come out, and they would be like, okay, cool, uh it's admec versus Necron. So we're going to release those two at the same time. And here's their video to promote those that can go on social media. That would be interesting. Uh, who knows if that's actually the case. Uh, it was interesting to note that I think one of them specifically stood out being very weird, which was the Eldari one, because it was like so short, it it almost looked like it was like a 2D that they'd sort of like animated it because it was just like sort of blinkin' you miss it type, whereas whereas everyone else felt like they got a much longer piece. Uh, but that one is specifically referencing some second edition uh artwork, which they mention here, uh, but don't show up. Um but yeah, that was uh cool to see. Uh then we finally got the core rules available for free, noting that some of the rules said see the app. So it'd be good now the app's out to actually go back through those core rules and see them. If you want to deep dive in the core rules as a shameless plug, you can watch our last episode where I went through them in absolutely minute detail. Um, I think there was only two things I I missed in hindsight. One of them was that when you fast dice and someone's making their saves, you roll all your saves at the same time, uh, but you pick the dice from lowest to highest, uh, which basically in theory makes characters a bit more survivable because they're be uh you know used last because it's like bodyguard first, but then it's characters. Uh but also makes precision more deadly, uh, because they in fast dice will be taking all the low dice rolls first, which I thought was quite interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

I'll level with you. I've It was it didn't I didn't see too much of a difference to how it is normally, which is just make all your saves.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

Uh you do, but you do them in a specific order. Because you know normally you would make your saves, but you'd be like, Oh, okay, I've got um five dice rolls will kill the bodyguard, so I'll I'll I'll fast dice roll them, and then I'll uh go, okay, cool, I'm now the character, so I'll roll the rest on the character. But instead you you roll all of the allocation in in one go. Um so I but so it does technically make a bit of a difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

It it's depending on depending on how we want to look at the probability it might make a difference. I mean I think you're right, it does make it does make characters slightly more survivable in theory, because it means all the failed wounds are gonna be more likely to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

It makes the character more survivable, especially if it's got like an inbund save or something. If it doesn't, it it potentially doesn't make a difference. As you said, the higher dice rolls should be saved to the end, so he's uh he or she is more likely to pass those dice rolls. But then the inverse happens when you do precision, because all your your dice rolls that are potentially fails are being triggered first, and it could just be a weight of numbers thing where you don't have much AP. But it's like, cool, have 40 shots, your characters making them all, and even if you don't have an AP and you're two, you've got two up save, but you're gonna roll a bucket full of ones because you've just got to make so many rolls, that's just all going on him first. Um well, not when it comes to precision, but you do the lowest order of of dice rolls in terms of the sequencing, if that makes sense. So let's say for example, I've I've got a character and a bodyguard, there's let's say five bodyguards and a character, and basically I'm doing f yeah, tw 20 attacks into you, uh, there's no AP, but basically you've got to roll 20 dice, but all of those dice in order of the lowest to highest are being allocated to that character. So if you rolled five ones, it's like, okay, cool, that character's now dead immediately. Then all the other dice rolls will go on to the bodyguard, and let's say there's a couple of twos and threes, so a couple of those guys die, but then you've the rest of like fours, fives, and sixes, and say, okay, cool, those will survive. But then it also works the other way around, right? So normally those ones would have gone on to the bodyguard unit, so those models would have died. And then by the time you get to the fours, fives and sixes, that would have been on the character, and that character would have survived. So potentially weight of numbers can be more deadly if if it can get precision, assuming you've got an ability that can give a whole unit precision or something that has a lot of shots that can have precision, which is, you know, not too common, I don't think. But it was interesting. I think there's lots of interesting nuances in the new rules. It doesn't feel like there's a whole load of really big changes, but there's just lots of little changes that I think catch a lot of people out. And there's you we just need to get some games in and to see how it all shakes out. Um, I think. So yeah, wound allocation uh was an interesting one. Uh yeah, there was a few others. Um but yeah, overall I thought this was quite good that they gave it for free, that they gave it to us quite early. The downside is that there was a bunch of areas where it said CD app and the app hadn't come out yet. Um and some of them felt like a quite fundamental, so would be quite useful to have in the core rules, especially if you were like a a new player, like because some of them are like, you know, what's a roll-off? If you don't know what a roll-off is, it's like, okay, cool, I can't do some of the fundamental bits of the game. And then it's like, okay, cool, I need the app to actually look that up. Whereas it feels like as a starter set, let's say these core rules are in a starter set, those things would be really fundamental to have. And I think having physical versions of those rules for someone to read would be more useful than say, go go off and find this in the app.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

Well, it should be it should be noted that the only reason they released the core rules in the way they did is because of a leak. So it was probably not intended to be released.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

Oh, true, yeah, because there was a copy, wasn't there?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

Yeah, it was probably not meant to be released until the app was updated.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

Good point. Yeah, no, that's fair. That's actually a good point. Yeah. Um, because yeah, I found that quite confusing. Um, but yeah, in hindsight, that would make more sense. Uh okay, cool. What do we have uh next? So we got a couple of round table videos. Uh the first one was discussing minis, uh, the first one was the specifically space marines, then it was orcs, then I think there was one about painting, which I think was quite useful. And the orc one was, I think, more interesting than the space main one. And they did one around the lore of Armageddon, and then I think they did one with the rules, and they I think I maybe missed a few. I don't think I've watched all of them, but they were quite interesting overall. I think the space marine one, which was the first one, was maybe the most boring because it was just them. I don't know. It just wasn't interesting in terms of like some of the evolutionary choices between, you know, orca versus you know, different types of space means doing space main stuff. Um, did you watch any of these? Well, there we go.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

I didn't even know these came out, to be honest. Uh so I can't really comment on them. They might be fantastic, but I have I I can't I have no I I don't have an opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:11

That's fair. I I saw normally like uh the sort of inner design studio stuff, and some of these were quite good and then some weren't as good. I think maybe I need to go back and either rewatch them. Uh yeah, I probably just need to re-watch them again to see uh what my thoughts about them were. But I think the first one I didn't think it was as fascinating as I had hoped for. Uh then we got an article uh talking about a global campaign that they're going to do uh but still hasn't happened yet. So they're taking some points on uh Armageddon, a particular hive, which is uh Defmeyer, which I think is yeah, Defmeyer's here on the left-hand side in Armageddon Prime. So you get to battle globally for the fate. Who knows that how that's gonna happen? It says you'll have an invitation to join it. I guess it's in the box set, maybe, which is what they did in the last one. So you had like a QR code that you could fill in. Um and then they say once a campaign begins on the 22nd of June, you have until the 13th of July to play a game and record it. So you don't even get a whole month, which is mad, because very few people in my mind are able to assemble a box of miniatures and play them in that time. I certainly don't. So if I could somehow maybe uh submit a game that doesn't require the box and in terms of like the actual minis to be played with, and I can just use any old army, then I could do it. That would be great. I think, yeah, last time because I didn't buy the box, I sort of missed out basically. But it'd be interesting to see you know the outcome of this. It felt like the outcome of the other one wasn't all that exciting. I definitely remember they had a your miniatures will be previewed first, and they've sort of said something similar this time round as well, where it's like, whoever wins, we will preview some of the new stuff coming for that faction down the line, which you know it gives some people an incentive for faking the results, maybe. I think everyone wants the underdog to win. So last time it was Turnids, and this time it'll be Orcs. Um I can't actually remember what the final results of that one were. Can you remember?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:18

No, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

I'm assuming it would have been Space Marines because there's more Space Marine players.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

You would have thought so, yeah, but I think people just I think you know. But again, I didn't buy I didn't buy 10th edition, so I couldn't take part in. Well, exactly, same, yeah. So maybe this time we can and get a game in and submit some scores. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see what it like. But it felt felt like, you know, it'd be great for them to do like an actual video, like narrative video explaining what happened. And maybe they did this last time, but it felt like such a non-story. Because they normally always say, Oh, you'll decide the fate of this, you know, in this case it's this high, and it will be written into Warhammer law forever. But it's like a cursory paragraph in a book that most people don't read, so it's a bit of a non-point, it's not like a massive, you know, change for the Warhammer story. And I feel like it maybe needs to have a bit more of an impact. Um, and it feels like this edition is very Armageddon themed, so it'd be interesting to see where they go with this or or what they can do with it. So that'll be interesting to see what they do in future when that comes out. So that is on the 22nd of June, so it's only a few days away, according to this.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

I'm gonna assume it somehow is involves being connected to the app to submit those scores into VCP or something. I'm going to assume that's how we're done. And one thing that that the app automatically assumes, as well as unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you can toggle it, is that you are but battle with painted battle ready by default.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:49

Yes, yes, I I noticed that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:51

You it's an optional 10 points, but if you're using the app, you get it anyway. You can't, it's not toggleable. So what's the point of that?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:57

Oh, it's not toggleable.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:59

As far as I can tell, it's I mean, I might have another um game. Yeah, well, I guess I'll just complete the finish the one we were testing the other day, but there doesn't appear to be any option to say that you were battle ready on the Well, we can get onto this shortly because uh we're a few tabs away and then we're talking about the app, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

Uh then we have the faction packs, which you mentioned earlier. So download the faction packs today. And so they started off with the space marines, gave us the detachments. Weirdly, they gave us the detachments in PDF form. So there's the new three new PDF, um, sorry, the three new detachments, the Fulgoris task force, the Libraries Conclave, and the subversion assets. They're all in like a new design template, whereas all the others are in the old design template, so they look slightly different than the new ones. They haven't updated the old ones to match, which was a little bit annoying, but I can understand they don't want to, in you know, this example, you know, do almost like 20 detachments and update the design of every single PDF. That's a lot. But slightly annoyingly, the force dispositions and the detachment points aren't on the PDFs either. So they've given them to us, for example, initially here on the Warhammer community page, which will be lost to the sound of time in the future. And then you've got to find them in the Warhammer app that now the app's available. So when you first see this, it's like, well, this is really counterintuitive. This isn't very easy to see. I just want to look at the PDF of my specific detachment and know how much it's going to cost and what the force dis uh disposition is within that page. When it comes to the app, though, it makes it far more sense and it's all included. But at this point, we hadn't got there. This was just seeing it via PDF form. So this was a bit frustrating. And at this point, even up to now almost, you still don't really know what the force disposition is, what it means, uh, until we get hold of the card. So again, we're still having, even though the core rules are out, we still have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

This is now in the app.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:05

I've but the way the I do agree, the way this was fed out, it's like, well, what what does this mean? This doesn't what is what are we supposed to take away from this? Now it's all in the app, it's a bit more straightforward. Okay, this is how it fits together, because you can choose multiple ones that add up to the value for the game you're watching.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

Yes, so you get three DP for a 2,000-point game, and you can mix and match your detachment. So you could take, for example, armoured spear tip, which costs three DP. That's your only detachment you take, and you get just the forced disposition of take and hold. I think the one frustrating thing here is that I feel like some of the three DPs should have multiple options. Uh so for example, armored spear tip should be maybe take and hold and something like reconnaissance, so you get a bit of flexibility in taking the free DP. I don't like how you take one detachment and you're sort of stuck rigidly to one playstyle. Whereas you could take three 1DP, um although that's maybe a bad example, because actually if you do that, you only get disruption and reconnaissance. Uh and maybe that's a deliberate design choice.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:15

Whereas you could do it, there's three at one DP.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:18

Yes, but two of them have the same force disposition.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:20

Right, but you get access to different different stuff and stratagms, etc. with their own.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

So each detachment unlocks new abilities and uh rules, and yes, sometimes it's stratagems and enhancements, and also like army-wide rules, or but it's normally specific to a specific unit. But the force disposition also unlocks with a detachment. So if you could take three one DPs and each one had a different force disposition, it would give you a choice but of three different sort of win condition. Whereas the at least with the spacemean one, if you did that, you actually only get two. Uh, and I'd be interested to know if that's a deliberate design choice. Because if you take a two DP and a one DP, you also get two. And maybe they've gone, well, we don't want someone to be able to pick between three because that's too powerful potentially.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:10

It it it's uh it's it does what isn't it's an interesting system that's I uh it made a lot a bit more sense once I had the app to be able to put it all together more. Like because looking at from a Chaos Knights perspective, there's the best fac there's there's the current best one, which is Traitorious Lance, which is free DP. So it's like, oh, you want you want the the sandwiches? Which is the one we've played, is the one where I can get I can add sustained hits and I can get all my extra movement and stuff. That's it. And to do that version, or to and to make one tough toughness 12, that version is all in the 3DP. However, now that there's the le the the smaller DP option, it is technically now possible if you're taking Chaos Knights to take a combination. You can obviously you can't do that one because that's all through that's free DP, but there is an option to take like Lords of Dread and and one of the new uh what they call force dispositions. So you can have ben you can have buffs for your war dogs and the big knight. So because there is there is some force dispositions which do cool stuff with the war dogs, but you but then you can't do anything cool with the big knights. So what is quite interesting about this is you can and I I've talked I've given some negativity towards the you can you can have more flexibility than ever before to building your army list. Right. And I'd essentially there in some ways there is less in in one perspective because now you because now you can you can still take whatever you want, but the more some of some th of certain units you or or the more of most units you take to the price it becomes higher. There's a price tax now. But what what they clearly meant by that, you have more flexibility, is you can choose you can slightly now mix and match between these force dispositions, and they could add in more forces as dispositions in books or what have you in the future. So if you want to have an army that lean so if you want to have your army that's got special rules for certain types of units, you can now mix and match that together. So you want to have an army as good as I use space marines as an example. If you want to have an army that's got special rules for Terminators and Land Speeders, you can probably do that now. Whereas before you couldn't do something like that because of how they've written because how how you picked your whatever it's called, your battle trait, or whatever it was going to be, whatever they called it back then, that's like this is how this is this is the task force you're gonna play as. Now you can mix and match a little bit to a certain degree, especially with the newer ones where they have the less. So you can make a an army which has a which has a theme which is a bit more however you want it to be. And I do think that's cool. I think it was slightly confusing how they initially communicated it, but seeing it in practice now, I actually think it is kind of cool. But it's gonna it it will take because a lot of right now a lot of the best attachments are still are arguably still some of the existing ones. And yeah, 3D P shots are so you're not gonna so you you might not jump off just yet, but it does give you more flexibility if you've always wanted to have a list, which is good which is do which is doing cool stuff with one thing and cool stuff with the else. Because before it became which I think is especially was sticking with space wind as the example, they're because you've got a great image here of I'm gonna assume white scars. And a lot of the when they brought out like the first company and siege breaker, whatever they were called, all the things they called them before, they were all archetypes based around the chapters. Oh, chapters, yeah. But they but they wanted to give you flexibility. So the one that was clearly the Imperial Fist wasn't called the Imperial Fists because you could play Imperial Fists with any kind of with any with any with um any chapter if you wanted to, which I thought was I I wasn't too much of a fan. I mean it it was it seemed like a nice idea. It did take some of the flavour away from different um chapters, but what they've done now is they've taken that to another level now with with the forced dispositions that you can mix and match different elements to make your own chapter and what your chapter's specifically good at. And I think that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:38

Uh yeah, hats off to Yeah, because one of the Black Templars ones is just specifically around the Emperor's Champion, just to buff that one character, which is very niche, but is a cool concept that you can do. The um so I was obviously looking at the custodies one, and I normally play the Emperor's Lions, which is weirdly not a three DP one, it's a two DP. So technically I can add an extra one DP detachment, and the three new detachments that they've given us, here is my juicy new rules for me to play with, and it's like one is specifically around Terminators, um, and it's like okay, I've got a unit of the Forge World Terminators, so that I mean I could technically add, but it's not a huge boon. Uh, but that is one DP. There's one specifically around Sisters of Battle, which I don't have any in my army, but it was it's got some cool rules. Uh and then the other one is uh specifically around Dreadnought, uh, which again I don't have any. So I was sort of looking at this and going, oh yay, there's all these cool rules for my army that don't affect my specific army whatsoever. And maybe that's just my niche, but it's like, oh, I don't actually get to enjoy any of these unless I want to build and paint some new models, uh, which is in a way is good. It's given me some ideas for theming and kit bashing, uh stuff like that. Potentially I could just take one of those to unlock a different force disposition because the one that uh the Lions has it requires doing lots of actions, and it's like, okay, my army doesn't want to actually be doing that. Uh so maybe I need to take one of the ones which is uh I think unlocks Purge Dafoe, so I can just do a bit more fighting over objectives, which is probably more the my preferred playstyle. And I think that's the thing I need to understand more is what does the forced disposition actually mean? What does a mission relate to, and how does that best fit my personal playstyle, but also what my army's got. And I feel like that is a massive wealth of reading that we need to learn about. It's sort of in the app, which so we can go on to the app section now, um, because obviously the app is now out. Force dispositions are in there, but only as part of the war journal, as far as I can see. And we did a bit of a test, so obviously we didn't play a game together, but we realized you can share codes because it's quite cool. You do this battle set on uh you've got to put your names in and uh you do a date. You can link to a BCP, so you can link it to a specific event with your account, um, and it will submit your scores for you, which is kind of cool. So it's doing like the old tabletop battles app and making that completely redundant now, which is good. Yeah, you put in your army, so you select an army that you've created from the battleforge uh section of the app. So it plugs that in there immediately and it gives you your force disposition uh that are available to you. According to this, it is a checkbook uh for the battle ready. So it feels like at this point, uh well, in the screenshot it is. In fact, if I just try and load up the now. Where is that though? Uh so you go war journal. Uh hold on, let's delete the game. We can do this live here.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:46

We'll do we'll do this live.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:47

So let's delete uh the current game. Yeah, you're right. You are no war journal.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:52

You're right. There is a there is a tick box. So it is simple factory.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:56

Oh yeah, no, it does work. Uh okay, cool. That's good. So yeah, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:00

I don't give a buddy, I was wrong. It was there is a tick box. It's just tick. So it's just tick by default. It just assumes that it ticks it by default.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

You can you can't see it on the screenshot, but on my uh screen, uh if anyone can see that, uh, there's an option to connect with your opponent or set up your opponent's army. If you do set up your opponent's army, it just gives you your f their faction. Um, their faction and which detachment they which detachments they have, so it can get the correct amount of false dispositions for you to select. Uh, or you can do a code, so you can generate a code or share a code. Annoyingly, when you generate it, uh you don't have a way of copying and pasting it in any way. Have you found a way of copying and pasting it? There I couldn't find a way, which I think is a minor annoyance because it means you have to remember it and type it in, or screenshot it, load it up into your pictures and functionality would allow if functionality would allow them to do it, or in an update. Just go send to WhatsApp or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:04

Or just allow a copy or allow a QR code option. That's all I mean as well. Or what if you're in person then you can be like, give me my QR code and it pops up and then the opponent just scans it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:14

Well, I I was just gonna say surely it can do NFT, right? It can just like you can just bump it, bump your phones together. Okay, yeah, yeah. And it would connect automatically. That would be a cool way of doing it as well. I think that that's more that's more device dependent, though. True, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:32

I imagine not every phone can do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:34

And you don't have to yeah, because I was thinking, oh, I need to send you the code, right? But normally we're in the same um same place. So I would just show you my screen, I guess, and you would type it in. But that still takes a bit too much time, whereas as you say, maybe a QR code or something is just a bit quicker.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:53

I think a QR code is a nice time. It's it's like six digits, so it's pretty it's it's fairly straightforward.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:58

It's not the end of the world, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

And most of the games are gonna be it was slightly convoluted for us and we're talking about copying and basing because we were doing it over we were doing it over WhatsApp.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:06

Yes, and no one you don't that's not how you play Warhammer, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:10

If we were in person, it would be a case of there's the code, type that in. Yeah. And true. And the fact that it works is magic. It's lit whoever's however they programmed it is real it's really, really great. Because it just literally instantly then gives you everything you have full access to your opponent's army list, all of their rules, all of their stratagems, all of their enhancements, everything they've chosen in their list, you have access to. Whether you bought the codex, you don't even have to buy the codex. You just have full access. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:37

Yeah, so it basically gives you battleforge for your opponent as well. And there's a little tab at the top to be your army, your opponent's army. And as we were testing it out, you can create an army that you don't actually have in Battleforge that you don't have the rules for, I guess. Uh but then when you share it, I get all the rules.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:58

Which is a little it it's a it's a very we're just we were just messing around a bit. It's it's a little bit janky because you can't really make a list using the new rules. Using the you can't you can't make a complete 11th edition list in the app unless you have the unless you've unlocked it with the codex. You can you can you can build a list and you can start chucking units in there, but you can't like attach them. As far as I could tell you, you can't like give enhancements, you can't attach I t I was just testing around making a uh sororitas list um when we were testing yesterday. I couldn't find a way to like add enhancements or add add a unit to leader take a leader to lead a unit.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

Because yeah, you know normally you just like tap onto the thing and it gives you the wall gear options and then you add the enhancements there. So I guess maybe they've taken it off if you don't have access to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:45

Yeah, I mean because I don't know where you add it, where you where you add in who leads the unit. So it might you might be able to.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:50

Yeah, well uh yeah, you can do that. I think you do that on the I think you do it on the on the yeah, on the leader itself, you can go like attach units, in the same place where the enhancements is, and then there's a drop-down of all your units that are in your list that you can attach it to. And then when you do that under that unit that you've attached it to, it also says, you know, my custody guard are being led by Blade Champion, for example. Um, and it gives it to you there, which is quite a cool little detail. I saw normally when an app comes out, I always complain about the functionality of it being dreadful. Actually, I sort of don't really have any complaints about this. My main complaints is uh maybe around the scoring and the mission setup. There's a lot of complexity there and the force disposition stuff. Um but they've done a lot of good work here. Like this isn't easy. Like last edition, the app was pretty rubbish in comparison. You know, it didn't really change a whole lot from the previous edition, whereas now they've done a lot more effort into this, which is you know, props to them. Uh it's really good. And but yeah, when you set up an a game, if I can quickly go through it, I can't screen share it, I don't think. Um, to record it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:08

Maybe I can if I do uh this maybe it'll appear.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:14

Okay, I found where attached to it. Can you say that at all? I can't see, but I found where attached to unit is now. I couldn't see where it was. Okay, let me nine it. Okay, that means I've got to go back and say whether I was wrong wrong before. Okay, no, you can attach to units. You can attach to unit. So I just I I didn't know where that was. It's it's you sort of you touch the three dots, and then you can attach to unit. For some reason, that's where you do it. So you can do that for a codex you don't know. But very niche scenario where you'd need to be giving your opponent access to your list. I suppose in a I suppose in a in a world where you do not want to where you prefer to not be using the app, for example, and you would and you so you haven't bought the codex or whatever reason you just chose you just chosen not to, but you do have an entirely valid list that you've painstakingly written down on on paper, you could then put still put it, you can then still put it into the app and share it with your opponent. But it feels like it's a very niche scenario, but it is an interesting nuance that you can technically make a list with a codex you don't own and share that with someone and it will unlock for them. But I feel that's a very a very small scenario to take advantage of that. I imagine you'd have to be having multiple Warhammer Plus accounts, so it's probably not worth it's probably not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:22

Yeah, I mean there could be a case where you got on let's say we're both 40k players, but we both want to play orc, and neither of us have played orcs before, but we got the box set, so we now have orc model. In a month's time, let's say, the new orc codex is probably going to come out. So we don't want to buy the current one. So for this one month while we wait to the new codex to come out, or maybe let's say we want to play chaos and we don't know when that chaos codex is coming out. We we're in a bit of a pickle because it's like buy the codex. Well, uh that is the answer. That's what that's the way it's the way it's always been. It's always been. But you're you're buying it for a very limited time of say a month or two. That feels like a waste of money. But then I'm a bit like, I will just struggle through for a month if it's Do you do you have all the codexes already, Phil?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:12

I do because So you are creating a you are creating a scenario, you are saying make you are what you are trying to empathize in that's with that with that scenario.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:20

So because it's not it's not it's not a zone you're in. I'm not personally in though, because I have all the all the temp fed codexes unlocked from my account because we got we bought review, well, we bought copies to review. We didn't get review copies because we don't get them. But me and Dan had all the temp fed codexes.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:37

My feeling on this is that that the vast majority of people right now who are going to be playing Space Marines already have a Space Marines codex.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:43

I 100% agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:45

And I think I think there might it is po it is possible there are p lots of people there could be, I don't know, I have no idea how much there could be people who are not currently orc players who are looking to get into orcs as a result of this. And I think I c can I see from the perspective from them that they don't want to that they think, oh there'll be a code Codex orcs coming out soon. There might be. We don't know how far away it could be. It could be months away, could be weeks away. We just we genuinely just don't know. Uh but it it that it will be coming at some point. And if you aren't already playing, if you if you were dis if you were deciding that you're gonna start playing orcs for the first time, and this box is what's encouraging you to do that, I can see why that makes a c you could be thinking, well, what's the point of me buying a codex if in a few months there's a new one? But it could be it could be six months, it could be a year. We it we don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:30

Yeah. So so personally, I would like Games Workshop to do a roadmap of codexes, which is normally what they would do, going ballpark first quarter, second quarter, or you know, spring, summer, whatever they want to divvy it up. This is roughly when we plan to put out codexes, which would help alleviate people. Because if you know, cool, my codex isn't even coming out this year, so I'll just buy the existing one. My all codex is probably coming out in the next two months, are holed off. I think that would help solve some of this problem. My other suggestion actually would be just buy the codex direct from Games Workshop, keep for receipt, and if in a month's time they produce uh a new codex, email their complaints uh department, their customer service, and say, I bought this, uh but you've just produced a new copy. Uh, here's my receipt, uh, I would like a refund or something. I think they I I've heard that they they do it uh for people that recently bought codexes in battle time that have then just been subsequently re replaced because they don't give you any notice of it or very little notice, but they don't advertise the fact that they do it. So that is what I would suggest people do. But obviously that's not guaranteed to happen. Especially not now you're telling anyone to do it. Well, possibly, yes. Well, you know, I I used to be an advocate of keeping all your Games Workshop uh stuff uh completely sealed and unboxed, sorry, sealed and in boxes because you could always return it, no questions asked from Games Workshop. And I mentioned that on the podcast. And guess what? You can't do that anymore. They've changed the policy. I don't know if that's because you said it or no, it's just a coincidence, I'm sure, but maybe clearly many people were doing it and they were like, How can we save some money, make people have receipts, or go, we don't stock this box anymore, or this version of this box anymore because it's been reboxed. So therefore we're not going to give a you know returns on it. Even though weirdly on the website they do advertise lifetime get like returns and guarantees.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:32

But oh yeah, they do for product that you buy directly from them and you have the receipts in there. But let's be honest, if the reason they would have changed that is because people will have people it it was probably a very strong goodwill gesture until they started realizing that there are people. People abusing it. There are people abuse there are people abusing that by who knew people in the war and the community would abuse loopholes. Who who could have foreseen such a scenario? But you could just buy it for cheaper from somewhere else and then take and then take it back to Games Workshop for getting the full way. In a manner of speaking, you're not really saving any money because you've ultimately it's it's if you're put if you're purchasing it from a other retailer for less but then taking it to Games Workshop to get credit, you can only really use it for something that's more expensive anyway. So it's a kind of a false economy, but clearly people were abusing it in some fashion. Or they're having people stealing prop stock and then just trading it in. Who knows what it was? Maybe. But it's there there was a time when they were Games Workshop was very flexible. Oh, you have some new stuff, you have something you bought, you changed your mind, you don't have the receipt, that's great, we'll do an easy swap. Clearly, that system it's clearly the system was being abused in some way. It may have been a two other ways, which we don't which we haven't mentioned. It was being abused in some ways, now it's not the case.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:39

Which is a shame.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:40

But yeah, that's true. Just quickly rounding off the last bit about the app update. I I like the war journal, however, it's still got some quite confusing elements to it. So you select your force dispositions, but again, there's nowhere explaining what the dispositions are unless you set up a game. No, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:01

Well, am I am I missing something?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:02

Oh I am you can do you you can see it so you can see it when you set up your list in Battleforge or when you're just going through the reference. So you can see what they are. They're not called force dispositions, they're called detachments, and that's all that's called information there.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:14

No, but uh sorry, but what I mean is okay, I've got a detachment that has a force disposition of some kind, but I want to know what mission I'm gonna what missions that will make me play. So I want to know, oh, am I doing an action? Am I purging the foe? Am I um you know, have I got kill points or have I got to hold more? As in when you're building the list. Yeah, so when I'm building the list, I I've got these detachments, but I have no context for how I'm meant to play the mission. And the only way to do that is to create a battle in the war journal, link it with someone else who also has a code to give me and read through them, or get the cards, which I don't currently have, and read through them all. I mean and that's what I need to sort of unlock the last piece of the puzzle for like how this game's played.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:05

As it stands, I mean it if you when you're when you're going through the app and you you're choosing what of the detachments that you're using, it does it gives you it tells you if it's purge the foe, is it priority assets, or what have you. It doesn't tell you what that means.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:17

No, exactly. That's my point.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:19

Because it because it won't though. Because it because it will only you only know what it means when you know what your opponent has.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:25

Well, so that's the way was because that's the way it works. Each one has like five different uh sort of mission, basically. Yeah, each each disposition has five variants depending on your opponent. But you should be able to read what they are to know up front because to bit to list build to win a mission, you need to know what the mission is, even if it's a choice of food thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:49

Yeah, but I I can see where you're coming from, but as I think I think I think the purposes of are I mean, I don't know, I have to look in the app to see where it can tell you what purge the foe does as an example.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:59

Other than when you get to the actual war, well it when you get to the war journal bit, it tells you what your primary mission is when you're playing the game. But it doesn't show you beforehand. So spoilers, I found something last night, in fact, wait, it's not this one. It's oh no, it's this base. So it's called uh GDM 2026. Now, this has all the rules, so it's you know one of those dubious sorts of uh websites, maybe. But all of this is given for you for free on the app, but it's just showing you in a much better way. So you got your force disposition. So let's say I'm Purge the Foe. So you can click on that, and it now shows you against your opponent what version of the mission you are that you're gonna play. Unstoppable force, meat grinder punishment, for example. So at least you know that. But then you can also, I believe, uh, if you go primary mission, so let's say you have purge a foe and I have purge a foe, so therefore we'd be playing meat grinder, and I want to tailor my army to achieve those objectives from that mission. So I can go to the primary mission section, I can click on Purge a foe. I these are the five different options, so I know I'm doing meat grinder, and then this now tells me what mission is, which is basically so scoring end of any battle round, uh at the end of your turn, one or more enemy units were destroyed this turn. And then from the second battle round onwards, end of the command phase, you control one or more objectives, you score four VP, and that excludes your home objective. And then from the second battle round one onwards, when it's the end of the turn, more enemy units were destroyed this turn, then friendly units were destroyed, five VP, or and I guess you control your opponent's home objective, also five VP. It's like, cool, now I have the context of how my army needs to play this mission. So therefore it gives me an idea of maybe the kind of units I want to include or exclude from uh my list building to play this game. And that, but then you go, well, actually, I need to look through now all of these cards to understand what I do. So you can just quickly easily go through all of them to read. And this is where it's like there's a whole bunch of rules. Like, I need to read all of these, I need to read all five for each detachment that unlocks a particular force disposition, which is potentially between two and three, to understand what kind of missions I m want to be playing, to pick the to then be able to pick the force disposition and then build an army to do these missions. It's like a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:30

I I I I can I I'm trying to think from my perspective, I completely disagree because the way what I think is very neat in the app is it doesn't bog you down with that kind of thing. It's like you build the list you want to take, optimize with the units you want to take, and then it says to you, this is your opponent, this is the kind of mission you're doing, and then it just tells you. I do I think it is, but then that's just how I think it doesn't I don't have to be overloading myself with information and list building for all these various combinations of who I might ever play. But there are there will be some people who want to do that, and they and that's something they don't want to do. So because it is a bit odd though that the app doesn't have a repository for that information. Like there isn't just like to your point, it's like meat grind like uh meat grinders a mission, but it's not in the why.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:13

It's it's in the wall journal, but not in like you can't you can't search it's not in the reference section, so you can't just look it up, which is all.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:22

I think it is it is curious, and it's and if maybe people let us know in the comments if that's changed, or it could be something that they're gonna add in. I think it's definitely worth lagging as something that would be I think to your point, some people will want that information to know for what does this actually what does this mean? Because this is a but if you want to if you really want to min-max the the the perfect list to be able to deal with any and all comers, which I'm sure the more I say that yes, of course there's someone who's gonna want to do that, probably in America. Um events of the hardcore community, hardcore competitive players. You you you're the reason the copy is so successful and we can all enjoy itself. But the I I I think it is valid though that that you can't just see that the missions themselves aren't in the app. That's a bit odd. Yeah. But it's got all them, it's got all the terrain layouts 50 different times for different combinations. But there's free terrain layouts, but they're in there so many different times. They don't need to be in there that many times. It could be a current limitation of the app, and that's something that's because I think that should be added in, but I don't I I still don't feel that I don't think it's that. I don't feel it's that necessary because it's a case of I've got this army I'm gonna use, my opponent has this army. Now here's what my objectives might be.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:24

So so the only reason why I wanted to know this is so Lions of the Emperor, which is a detachment I not normally play with my custodiaslash under warrior. Um it is disruption. So I created a temporary game uh with you in the war journal, and I was reading through the missions, and I was like, I don't actually want to do this. So it might have been something like, I don't know, delaying action. Let's see uh if I can find the one it was, and maybe it'd be unique to uh the maybe oh god, is it making me out to be a liar? I can't remember which one it was now, but basically it was it was do an action to to to win the game, and maybe it's like oh this air. Well, no, because exactly it's like do some actions with your literally your 2,000 points army that has like four units. I mean, it's like I can't afford to do actions, but that's what it's uh making me do. And so therefore it's like, oh actually, no. Oh yeah, here it is, an objective action. So it's like, so I need to know this going into a game. I can't just be like, oh, let's create a fun list. And then it's like, oh no, here you are to win the game, you need to do a bunch of actions, and it's like I don't want to play action with that particular army, and if I do, I need to make sure I can bring extra units like sisters or imperial agents or something to enable me to still do action. So that's sort of why I wanted some upfront notice. And trying to do that in the app was very difficult because I had to create a a fresh game each time to be able to do that, which is incredibly time consuming. Whereas here it's all laid out. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:58

That's that's very fair. I was I wanted to say something like, Well, yeah, you're you've got this stupidly overpowered army that goes and tables whatever it comes up against. Normal army do you play again?

SPEAKER_01 1:46:08

You play Richards. What are you talking about? Use Chaos Knights and I get tabled by the likes of you. But but my point is, you've got an army that's incredibly strong, has low model count, and probably doesn't want to be doing actions. Although I think you can do actions and shoot.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:22

Yeah, the good news is Titanic units can do actions and other stuff. Well, there you go. I think they can do actions in anything now. Like I think that that's changed a bit. But I no, you you you have convinced me, Phil, that what would be a good thing to be adding into the app would be the ability to for because currently if you look at a detail there's different So I think it's it doesn't matter. Uh if you are a purge uh what what are the what the types of one what are they called?

SPEAKER_01 1:46:46

What's an example of a uh so there's like disruption. So you've got so you've got reconnaissance.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:53

So your force disposition is reconnaissance, then it would be uh cool if within the app you could see what the various types of missions you could be coming up against with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:03

Or you could tap on whenever it said Persia Foe, you could tap on it, even if it said this army style is predominantly about killing your opponent and killing more of their units than your units. Like a brief overview. If reconnaissance is this is predominantly around moving it around the ball and scoring table quarters, or this is about outscoring your opponent on objectives, or this is a detachment or disposition that is mostly doing action on things. Like just give me a brief overview of what all of those things are, even if that's just a pay in the references. Like I just need something, and you know the names allude to it, but that's only because I played the code.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:42

Here's something I wonder. Here's something I do wonder. Do you do you need is there a code with chapter approved or is it or not?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:49

Possibly. I wouldn't have thought so. Because they don't ever do codes for decks of cards. Because if they have an historical.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:57

Because if there isn't, you don't need to buy chapter approved, because it's all in the app. However, currently there is this now where it's not the only where I I don't want to say something as cynical as the only way you can vo view the missions in advance is to buy the cards. Otherwise, you'll just be surprised when you when you go into the uh consider the war journal. Oh, it could be it's not been added in yet. If we wanted to be, because it there is some limits in the the chapter approved functionality is a little bit janky in the app at the minute. So maybe it's something that's due to be added in at the weekend or next week. They haven't said anything on like I don't I don't I don't believe at the time of recording there's been anything said in like well, I don't give me to anything that they that there are things that are not yet in the app. Or maybe this is maybe this is something that they can now realize, and people say, hey, it's not in the app. So put on the socials that this this is a bit it's a bit weird this isn't in there because as it stands, if someone wants to someone that's I think what's key to point out from a player's usability perspective is if you want to know what those missions are, you have to go to a third-party website. And if you're using the app, you can't you can't get that information. And that's a shame because the app Well not very easily. It's a shame because the app is is really, really good. Yeah, the way you can share your lists is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:07

What's interesting is that the app for doing the Wall Journal section is so good, as you you rightly point out, you don't even need the cards anymore because it shows you the the mission layouts and the terrain layout, and you can select or customize them. It gives you the option to draw your cards digitally, much like tabletop battles did. Uh so you don't even need the cards to randomly draw them. You just tap on the uh app, uh draw card, draw card. Now there are some elements to it where you can just keep tapping infinitely and draw 50 cards. It should have some self checking to be like, well, you can tap maximum of two a turn or something, or discard that up, you know, you've got to discard some before you draw more. It needs some sorts uh sort of general checking like that. And I think in a way, the the missions are so complicated in a way. And the scoring's quite complicated, that you can't just play with cards and jot down the score. Having an app that sort of take hand holds you through it is much better. So then you go, well, what is the point of those cards? And I still feel like you're missing a few bits, you're missing the general order of starting a mission, although the War Journal sort of walks you through that. You get the maps, but I still feel like we're missing the keys on those maps. So I've noticed on the terrain there's little circles that say like C F D C and things like that. And I'm like, what do they mean? Like I don't understand though. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:38

It in the app there is like a here's what the key means, and then there's no symbols. It doesn't actually tell you.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:43

Yes, yeah, I noticed that as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:45

And so I think it might be that there's something missing from the app or it's not fully updated yet, which is possible. So hopefully that's something that's intended to. I would say hopefully that's something intended to be fixed. Because at the minute that's that is a bit weird. You've you've talked me around to why I think it would be good to be able to see the potential missions you could be playing. And in many ways, why can you why can you not see the potential missions you could be playing in the app anyway? That's a bit odd.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:07

Because all the rules are there, and that's why I don't mind showing that website, even if it's you know, technically showing off Games Workshop rules, because it's not like that It's not like it's a codex where you have to buy the rules to get them. These rules are available for free in the app now, and all it's doing is showing you that already. And I believe, I don't know if it's true, but a lot of that information was given to TO in advance for free because they knew a lot of people will have events coming up. So they gave out a PDF to those people, and a lot of that's been widely circulated around as well. So a lot of people have had access to this sort of thing beforehand. So I think it's just a correlation of that info that Games Workshop gave out. And it's just a much handier way of accessing what Games Workshop has given out for free in the app, but the app's just a very awkward way of finding that detail. So that information should be how I've you know, when I showed it how they laid it out, would be great for the app to also do something like that, just so you can get a brief overview of what those things uh should be, and like said, a key for the the the map, basically, um for the layouts and stuff like that. I think that's like the only thing that's really missing so far. I haven't noticed if because I know legends are back in the app, but I've not checked that out yet. I've not checked if actually there's like a little toggle anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:28

Legends are not in the app, were they?

SPEAKER_01 1:52:30

Where are the legends? Well they said they said they would be in the app. Who who what? Like Games Workshop. They said legends. Um say hold on. It's just if I scroll through Astra Militarum, if there'll be a bunch of old oh, hold on, let's go Imperial Armour. Oh, you're right, they're not. But do you know what they did? Because I think this is the same for AOS. They're not in the reference section, but they're in the army build. So I bet if you go and let's say create an Astro Militarum force, um, I bet you can find some Forge World unit. So let's go, other data sheet, girl. No. So obviously the app isn't fully updated.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:14

So does it does it say in this article that we have on screen right now that the legends are back? Or is this something they've said previously?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:20

They said previously, and obviously So they talk about oh, the Munitorum field manual. You sent me a link to talk about that, because actually that's quite good in terms of um that's now no longer a PDF, it's a web page, so it loads it's worse incredibly quickly.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:38

It's good and bad, Phil, because it doesn't, it's not easy to see the difference. It's like the one thing that was good about the old filmizers, like hit it would highlight the changes, and this doesn't highlight anything. Yes, you mean you have no idea what's changed, and so so yeah, that's a I think that's an issue.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:52

I agree, but I like how quickly it loads up. So this is for example Adeptors Custodies, it gives you your detachments and what they are, and it gives you the points cost for everything, but it hasn't given you the points variation between versions. So they haven't said this has gone up 10 points, this has gone down 20 points. That I would like to see. Yeah, I wonder if they haven't done it because it's a new edition, but because the codexes are still valid, I still think it's useful to know what has gone up and what hasn't, even if it's a new edition of the game. But I can feel like maybe that's why they didn't bother. But I think they should still do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:28

I I agree. I think I would assume it's because it's entering a new edition, so this is like this is the points for the new edition. So it's looking because it quickly to be clear clear, um to support that version R it does say version 1.0.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:41

True. And there is a toggle here that says show legends. And it does say because I've noticed the lead stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:49

Go to E. Why is there no there's no E for unless they're at the bottom. Because there's no Elysium, because Elysium drop symbols.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:55

Oh well, here we go. Legends, it's at the very bottom. But then they're not in the app. So they're obviously coming at some point, I would hope. Interesting. Yeah. Oh, 35 points. Uh yeah, so much. I I wish half of this stuff would come back. This is making me cry. Um, but it's interesting that things some of the uh leader units do reference like Grenadier Squad, which are legend uh specific units. So Legends.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:21

It could be the unit to go on the Instill as well. It could it could be there's some stuff missing from the app.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:25

Yeah, it might be they roll that out like once the game is technically like launched, whether that's tomorrow or like in a week's time or so. They might go the Legends isn't really a priority for launch date. So, and again, it's content for a later time. So they will do that um length. So, yeah, that would be interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:42

Or they f forgot that it was they said it'd be in the app, or they didn't say it was in the app. Get the Wayback Machine up. Anyone know if you need that? Yeah, they still have to do that. I'm still waiting for the app to have crusade support. So but you know what they did? They killed Crusade and they killed Crusade rather than have the support in the app for they realised they can do it, I imagine.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:58

Um okay, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:01

I can't call you out anymore for not having the crusade support in the app.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:03

Yeah, let's talk about the very last thing. Uh so obviously Armageddon came out a few weeks ago. Great, hasn't sold out yet. Could be good or not for Games Workshop, who knows? Then uh last week on pre-order was the campaign deck, chapter approved. Yeah, I think that then came out. And also the terrain area set. So this is the thing that's worth talking about because I forgot it was on sale until like the afternoon, at which point it was out of stock. It says temporarily out of stock, but if we were to assume they don't have any stock made, like coming from China or wherever it's manufactured, it will still be a few months away to get hold of this. I want to play a game of 40k when my box arrives and I get my cards, I've got my physical rule book. Can I play 40k immediately? No. The answer's no, because I don't have the all singing, all dancing, the one thing they sold us this edition's all about, which is area terrain. And I don't have this one. Uh I would prefer the Games Workshop official one because it's sort of nice card stock, it's not near pre-mat.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:14

Let's let's they they it there should be in what there should have there should be enough of these for everybody to play the game. Yeah, so and there isn't there hasn't been enough. There's like they they are still like Armageddon is still available. Yeah. So everyone is buying everyone who's buying Armageddon, even if you're splitting that, you're gonna need one copy of the terrain area set, and they there there's a disparity there. So unless some unless someone's out there buying all the terrain sets, so that other people can buy them. Maybe and I can I can think of at least a few places that might be wanting to do such a thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:46

Yeah, so uh we get on with that in a second. Hold on. But Chapter Approved normally always sells out, and I wonder if it hasn't sold out because if because it's actually in Armageddon this time. And I feel like last time it wasn't in Leviathan and it was sold separately. But it's interesting that also the core rules is sold out. Clearly, people because even if you uh what I find really puzzling is it should have just been in the Armageddon box. It doesn't feel like it's that big of a stretch to have included it because you've included everything else. I I would have honestly preferred the area terrain set over the narrative campaign deck and the narrative book, those two things you could have bundled together and sold as its own thing to be like, here's the story of Armageddon, here's the campaign deck to play that, that's its own bot. And the area terrain set should have been in Armageddon, because then everyone who's bought Armageddon can immediately start playing the new game. Whereas now I'm in the same situation as last year, where it's like chapter approved isn't out yet, or it's sold out, I can't get hold of it for a few months, I can't play the game unless I'm, you know, using a friend's copy or something like that. And at least with that, is it's normally shared. And likewise, if I'm playing 40k and I went around Dan's house, I imagine Dan might have a copy of this. But if you don't have a copy and I don't have a copy, we can't have a get.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:08

You're rolling, you're talking about chapter approved or the terrain?

SPEAKER_01 1:59:11

Terrain now I'm talking about. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:12

Yeah, I think I think it's very weird that it's not available. But everyone has stock. There has to be because it I it it's weird that they because they could have put that in Armageddon instead of they could have put that in Armageddon instead of the na instead of the Dominators deck. Yeah. And they would have made more money because it's two pounds cheaper. They would have made more money in theory by doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:33

Uh well, yeah, but less people would have bought it.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:35

Less people would have bought the Dominators separate. Or you could oh yeah, I think that's a reason why you could bundle it, why you'd want to put the Dominators deck, Dominators deck, in Armageddon, because less people are actually going to buy it, I would guess. So bundle it in Armageddon, so more people will be playing Dominators. Maybe it's the thing they really want to push, and that's why they put it in there. But you can't play you need the terrain area set to play the game. Yeah. There is no mission anymore which exists which doesn't use area terrain sets. And you can't buy it. It's sold out instantly. It's not a it's not a quick it's I mean, I I also forgot I I meant to buy it. I looked at mid-morning and it was sold out. I don't know what was also.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:13

Yeah, so I looked on Element Games, they were not selling it at all. Now we look at Element Game, they are saying they sold it, but it was now sold out and is unavailable for 15. I'm 100% sure, or maybe 99% sure, that they weren't selling it because I checked. But they, however, now have their own sets uh available for twice the price at £35, which is steep. I mean, maybe it's not made of neoprene mats or something, so maybe that's nicer than car, but is more expensive. Other third party size uh Weyland Games we saw. Oh, it's making me do a bot thing. Hold on. I don't know why. Uh so Wayland Games. Is this it for me? He is human, he's proven. I am human, yeah. They've got terrain area plates, which are very basic MDF ones, and I would almost be tempted to pick these up, though they're a bit expensive, because I can then add on my own ruin and rubble. So I would just use this as a template and I would decorate it with my own um yeah, bits and sand and stuff and paint it up myself. So it's more physically 3D, and I would yeah, put like yeah, beams in there and things like that, or bits of uh I don't think I would actually build on the terrain, but I'd almost be tempted to like you could literally glue your terrain down onto it and go, well, that's just a footprint, but I'd potentially be cautious about that and still keep the main terrain separate in case Games Workshop do a humdinger on us next edition and be like, we're changing the size of all the area terrain, so you've got to buy new ones. And to be honest, they might do that next year with chapter approved. They might be like, we've changed the size and shapes of all our area terrain to mix things up a bit. And so checking all the way.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:04

Because where else are they gonna get? But it's it's weird to me, it's really weird that Games Over show don't appear to have gone big on selling them in third party at this terrain set with third parties. And all the f and most of those third parties are selling their own versions at a vastly or a a a much higher price. Double the price of the price. I didn't I nearly said inflated, but I don't think that's fair. I don't I don't necessarily think that they are going out of their way to to to overprice it. That just me the these maybe aren't very good pricing based on what it costs. Or they're all taking advantage of the fact that Games Workshop just don't have enough stock for it. But that's what's kind of odd that Games Workshop actively have clearly not got enough stock. Yeah, a bunch of third parties have got these have got their own versions, which are over double the price.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:46

And before we go on this thing, we I want to actually this is happy because for those who are watching the video, there's these you see a little bit of rubble, little bits of rubble on them. These don't matter. These are those are purely decorative. And do you know how I know this? Do you know how I know this, Phil?

SPEAKER_01 2:02:59

Does it say it in the rule?

SPEAKER_02 2:03:00

No, I don't actually know it. I'm just going, if you go back to the Element Games tab, you will notice that they do not have the little bits of rubble. This is Wayland Games does.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:07

So on the Wayland Games are by element decorative choice.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:12

So on the element isn't. So what is a to what is an objective and what isn't? Because those triangles aren't even really the right size.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:18

Well, they're they're the correct size as prescribed by Gaines Workshop, but they're not the same style. So for example, these uh these triangles on element are completely squared off. Yeah. But these ones here are wiggly line. These ones are wiggly lines. Look at the PF. They are not they are not the same.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:40

This is the official terrain. Well, that's the question. Does it matter? Is what we're playing. Oh no, but when is it when is what is an objective when is an objective not objective? What is the size of an objective? If this is what we if this is this this was prepared and produced, games would be saying, this is what an objective is. And you can't buy this, but you can go to Element Games, and this is no distributed number. I just this is just pointing out visual differences. The element games versions are not are not wiggly like this, it's a straight line, and it doesn't have the little rubble parts coming out of it. So if you're on the rubble, does that count as being on the objective? I've always assumed it does. Yeah. But I there are third parties selling items with that which don't have that and a different.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:22

The only time it really makes a difference is let's say you've got an army build with a certain movement where you can be like, cool, uh turn one, I know I can turbo boost or whatever you might do, advance a unit or jet bikes to just tow into one of these rubble piles. Because if I position and I practice my games loads, and I'm gonna go to a tournament, I practice my games, I know if I position my unit here, I can move onto one of these rubble pieces to claim that objective. Turn one, that's my strategy that I'm gonna do every game. And then you go to an event that doesn't have those rubble pieces, that instead just have these square setups. You're like, oh, you've you've ruined my tactic and my positioning that I practiced for because I was hoping for that extra inch or half an inch that I tailor my army towards. I mean, that's a very niche competitive gaming thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:17

It's it's completely all the i it is vital all the s all the time. It's the equivalent of saying all the objectives we're gonna use are 40 mil bases, and then saying, but what we haven't got any 40 mils, so we're just gonna use 25 mils. That's a different game, and that's what is actually that's kind either an objective is a defined size, defined footprint across all games. We didn't touch on it in this, in this, but when they did the when they first did the like the map layouts, they were they were minuscule, like this is like this is a quarter of an inch. Like the level of deep precision to how far everything is apart was like incredibly precise.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:52

So when wasn't that on the page that you sent me uh before? Hold on, let's see if I've still got it. Uh no, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:00

I remember getting really I remember being really confused about like how overly specific they were in the layouts of how of where the terrain should be, how far apart everything should be in the in like the map layouts. So when you change those shapes, which is what is in the instance of what Element have done with their designs, are they still valid? What and what is still valid? When is what isn't it when is not the same?

SPEAKER_01 2:06:22

They are the they are the prescribed shape and uh measurements. So here's the question the game's work.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:29

Is this element games terrain valid? Because it's not the same shape as the official ones. So which is the real thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:37

I think the idea is area terrains are meant to be thematic now. So it shouldn't matter if the sizes are slightly off. It's all about thematic, it's all about you know narrative. Um but I imagine most people would be like, no, I want the official games workshop ones if they're extra wiggly bit.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:54

No, the this the the the hardcore community of professional gamers will decide what is the real ones. So which is it? Is it these ones with the is it the ones with the wobbly lines on the triangles? And the is it the ones which have got like because Wayland games, they are carbon copies of all it appears to be. They are the exact things.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:13

So they've got wiggly bit. They've they've got wiggly bits, they've got what appears side bit. Oh, yeah, no, but they've got different size wiggly bits. So look at this wiggly bit on the uh guy. If you're just listening and not watching, I'm sorry everyone. Um but the wiggly bit on the main uh area terrain that's a triangle shade. That is a tiny little bit of rubble pile on the official Games Workshop one, whereas the the Whalen game ones have a much longer wiggle, but it doesn't go out as much.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:43

So that they're made up the what is the real shape here? What is when if if it feels it feels like there is Games Workshop have not released enough of the official uh well they've not been able, I mean uh they may have production issues, I don't know. Maybe they weren't able to manufacture enough, and that's why they weren't in the main box. Who knows? But the reality is that is that they have not been able to they have not provided enough of these objective terrain pieces, terrain area terrain layout pieces for UGR to player, for people to be able to buy them. And however you how what hang on.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:13

Oh, we're not getting into it.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:15

I just want to get into just yeah, but third parties are uh which is basically if you want to play, the primary way you want to play, you're gonna be able to do that is to buy from third parties who are um manufacturing, by the looks of it, pieces which are not the same shape.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:27

They're like sort of Timo. They're like Timo.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:30

But it's not like a 40 mil objective. When a 40 mil objective was a 40 mil objective, the the five-inch pie plate was a five-inch pipe, you knew how big it always was. Now we're in a world where people the third butt the where the manufactur the the third party manufacturers are making terrain arm of terrain terrain pieces, which are objectives. They are the ex they are inferior, what we've been told is the exact size of objectives, are completely different shapes. They've got the knobbly bits, or if they've got bendy bits on the same.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:56

But the knobbly bits and the shape of like the broken pieces are different and unique to them. So they're not identical to Games Workshop ones, which sort of surprised me, but I think it's because they didn't have access to them. Uh and the turnaround for what they've done uh is quite quick, which is sort of impressive in and of itself.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:16

But are they valid? Well, yeah, of course. Can you don't you can't say, oh yeah, of course. I don't think you can see. Well here's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:22

There they're not valid as so long as TOs buy them, right? If for TOs for tournaments. Because that's where it really matters. Like at home, do what you want, and it's uh it doesn't matter if m my objectives uh have a slightly different wiggle than your because we're only playing on one set at a time.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:40

I don't see what the point of having.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:42

I can imagine it being a bit more of an annoyance.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:44

I don't see what the point is of having these really specific and prescriptive terrain layouts if when it comes to the size of the footprints, you can just be ah it doesn't matter. Add a little bit of add a little bit of wiggle room on add an extra half an inch off the side of this one, why not? Or have this one have a little indent. It's it completely it completely underwrites the the uh the competitive integrity of the whole thing when you can change this. No, I mean that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:09

Part of me feels like the rubble shouldn't really the the one way they could solve it is going, well, the rubble shapes don't actually count, but then you get into a weird case of but they're on the areas of the side. So why are they there? So what's the thing?

SPEAKER_02 2:10:22

I was always wondering and now it doesn't we don't know. It's it it's it for me, it's like this needs clarification. What actually is an objective now? If you can just say uh or is the idea you say it's just that building I put on here, is that the idea? Or is it like no, you need to have these specific footprints? Because now the specific footprints are not all the same size. Because if you're if you want to buy if you buy them now, you have to buy from a third party and they are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:44

I think the measurements in the uh deployment map are to the hard-edged angles, which are the consistently the same because they're just the pure measurements that Games Workshop gave out. It's only the extra wiggly bits which aren't really part of the measurement that are different, and that's just a little bit of nuance. In the same way, the terrain that you put on, which affects line of sight in terms of line of sight blocking, will be different from each map and each player based on what terrain they have, because they might do the proper like ruins, they might do their own set, they might do the pre-painted set when that's available. That all affects the line of sight and visibility in terms of true line of sight in a completely different way. So there is no consistency, really. And ideally, in an ideal world, it should all be narrative based, and you don't need that consistency. But I think we're talking about it's more on a competitive level where people do want standardized standardizations, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:11:44

So I guess one thing I will say is that it does appear that in the app, I don't know if you based on the app on the on the terrain layouts in the map, they are very specific to the shapes in that have been prepared in that that have been prepared in the official release, like in the PDF. So and like you can and you See that the level of of how many exact inches things are apart. If it's at a point where you can just be you can add little weird bit, wibbly like all these little wibbly bits one assumes is are meant to be there on account of that's how they've been designed and that's how they and they match up with the terrain with the layouts in the app. And I assume they'll be matching up with the cards in chapter. And that's why I'm I'm I've not getting rubber heated. No, it's because I just want to understand what is the what is the official what is the official line on this? Is it just ah just make them roughly the right shape? Or is it no, they have to be the specific sizes? Because now we're we're we're entering a situation I know I've no idea what it's like in America and and for availability there of these pieces. But if you're gonna play in a competitive if you're gonna play in a competitive version of the game, which version of these twin pieces are you using? What do you think about the case?

SPEAKER_01 2:12:44

Yeah, I'm using so on my screen, uh you can sort of see the terrain maps that they give you in the app. Uh I don't know how super clear that is. And they do give the measurements, but they are like to the corners, right? And the corners don't have the wibbly bit on them.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:59

But but but the sh but the shapes are are all the same. I just want to know if if the if the if the wibbly bits don't matter, why are they on the official designs and why are they in the official layouts?

SPEAKER_01 2:13:09

Well, I think I think they well, I I would say they do matter, but at the same time, Games Workshop doesn't care if you have diff wibbly bits.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:17

If they don't matter, then just if they don't matter, then use D8s rather than D6s.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:22

Okay now you're being facetious.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:23

I'm not I'm not being facetious. I the I'm not sure if you're we're talking about competitive integrity. It's like it's like saying, or it's like if you had a you had all your old uh neoprene objective markers, but your dog took a bite out of it, and then you took it to an event and said, Oh, well, you can't actually score it if you're on the bit my dog took out because it doesn't really matter. And which I'm admiting a bit facetious is how I say that, but I just want to know what is what is an actual objective. Can you add on your own wibbly bits however you see fit? Is that up to is that up to you as a player? Or is that or is it what Games Workshop haven't said, they have not said can you can what you can do. I would like Games Workshop to say you can add on these whip the wibbly bits as much as you want. Well the the diagonals can be however you want to make them look. They can be as wibbly or wobbly as little straight as you need to make it.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:07

The official guidance that they gave in that first article, uh they gave the measurements, and I believe from Garfield, because he's one of the TOs, so he's been on one of those TO calls, I think, they gave the measurements there as well. Um and that is what initially people were making their custom it maybe. I think that they were making their own based on that, and I imagine a lot of these manufacturers were doing it based on those measurements. Although what was interesting, this uh triangle, this notch here, isn't in the measurements. So the the measurements that Games Workshop give give it from like the the corner to corner measurement and not this extra two inches, I believe. So it's worth pointing out that yes, Games Workshop didn't produce enough didn't produce enough objective markers. However, in the Warhammer community downloads page, they have supplied us with printouts of these objective markers.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:02

Isn't that great, Rich? People who have an A3 printer, it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:05

Yes. So you told me this. You were like, oh, because I was out and about at time, and I was like, but they've got them on the Warhammer community to print them out. And you were like, I've checked the file size and it says it's A3, and I was like, don't be ridiculous, no one has an A3 printer. And then I double checked the measurements when I got in. Uh so in theory, this large piece here, or one of the other larger pieces, uh like this one here, should fit on an A4 piece of paper, but it would take the majority of the A4 piece of paper. So I sort of feel like they the reason why they've designed it for A3, and it is actually A3, is because the the margin that people have on their printers wouldn't allow them to fully print out these area trains. Basically, they're too big for an A4 print. But no one, as you say, no one in the right mind has an actual A3 printer. Although maybe if you're a TO, you'd just be like, cool, I'll go to a local shop and get, you know, 20 of these printed out and it'll cost me like 20 quid or whatever. And there's my objectives, they're printed on crappy paper, but that's fine. You know, my tournament will eat up these costs. But I guess if you're playing from home, it's a bit more difficult because it's like I could print these out, but they wouldn't look very good. And I couldn't easily print them out on A4. I think what I'd be most inclined to do is try and print them out on A4, even if that requires uh printing, like doing a split page, so printing an A4 piece out like one page over two A4, cellotaping them together, and then I would use that as a stencil onto some plastic car or XPS phone call. So I've got a hard base template that I could then decorate with my own stuff. And that's the official size. So it's similar to what I was saying with that um area terrain. Oh, I'm uh don't care about being a human, so I'm not gonna show it again. Those MDF versions from uh Wayland game, but at least it would be the official official rub designated areas to keep you happy.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:06

I'm gonna wait and get the official ones. Well, at least to know what they're at least in the Game Games Workshop just assuming that someone out anyone out there is asking Games Workshop or Games Workshop respond on it, I'd like to know what is the correct ones we should be using. That's all I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:17

Yeah, I mean I would kind of love it if they did like really basic plastic versions of these. So you know, like the sculpted bases, right? Where it's got some detail just sort of built in, and they're just like, you know, that could be a sprue, just clip it out. It's got some of the rubble detail and uh, you know, the the plating with the rivets on, and that's just like hard plastic, stick it down. It'd obviously be a bit deeper, maybe the the cardboard, but I think that would look quite cool, and you could paint it up however you want. It could be pre-painted to match a pre-painted terrain. Yeah, it'd be interesting. I think I'd prefer the Games Workshop official one, even if it's the cardboard one. But yeah, I don't really want not have a game of 40k for like two or three months because that's the lead time on getting more.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:02

Yeah, I'm just confused by I'm mostly I'm disappointed that I couldn't buy the terrain kids uh these areas. So I'm mostly disappointed by which I know which I which I which I do appreciate. There may be that's most likely down to circumstances outside of various various people's control as to why there's not enough stock available.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:18

Yeah, and I'm sure but I'm sure we're not the only people in this situation, right? There's every time there was chapter-approved cards going out, there'd be half of people would be like, Oh yeah, I bought mine, no problem. And then there'd be other people who would be like, Well, I missed out and I I haven't got hold of it. And it would be the same for this area terrain. There'd be a bunch of people that were like, Oh yeah, I was there Saturday morning for pre-order and I got it in time, and then there's a bunch of people like us that are like, oops, I forgot. Because a part of me was like, I was there ready to buy Armagedd and these objectives at the same time. I sort of don't I know they wanted the fanfare of Armageddon as being its own thing, but I would have much rather pre-ordered this at the exact same time if that's what was needed, because I could have done it all in one go rather than having to, you know, go from you know, two different sites or two different lots of shipping from the same company just for the to get hold of it. And even if you get your box, let's say you bought your Armageddon box and you ordered this, you'll still have to wait a whole week to get hold of the to to play like a proper game of um 40k. I think you could muddle along, right? You could probably go, well, let's just roughly make some area terrain out of some Ruin or some you know shipping containers or what have you, and represent them even if they're not the exact sizes. So you could do something that would that would work. Yeah. Um well I think we we've talked to deaf now about the the lead up and launch of 40k. Uh have you got any like in summary thoughts about it, what being good and bad, and I guess are you still excited to try and play some 40k?

SPEAKER_02 2:19:53

To try and play 40k. I'm really excited. I am really excited because I like the way they I I I like I'm I'm I've come around to the the detachments to forces position stuff. I think that's gonna be cool. I I think the app is brilliant for what they've added to it. I think the missions is a bit weird because I just have to I was just messaging Tom and it turns out that the the mi uh that you can't play every the the the missions they provide you are only f are not the chapter approved mission. That's like a tournament edition. Or there's some confusion over that is. So it's a bit it's a bit weird. But no, I am exactly playing it. I would like to get some guys on how one play how one plays a game and how you do it with the different uh terrain layouts, etc. Because it looks really cool. I want and I'm excited to get back into play more for EK again because 10th edition the met the m the the the core missions of 10th edition I found less interesting, but I I have enjoyed playing it more in the last 12 months. Doing more of the narrative stuff with the 500 worlds campaign that we've been doing, that's been really good fun, just just playing, just moving models around a table. So I'm really hopeful that this new version is smoothed out, is simplified in such a way so you can just have a much more fun game based on what you're bringing to the table. So I am excited for it. I mean there's a few minor niggles like what's going on with the objectives, like the fact that as you were saying about the missions not being in the app, but that might be more of a confusing thing for what is a like what's a tournament mission, what's a chapter proven mission.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:12

Right, yeah, yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:14

So but no, I'm really I am really excited for it, which is annoying because uh I want to spend my time and focus on AOS. Um so now I might have to split my time all so good job team 40k, I guess, before that. But I am really looking forward I'm I am mostly looking forward to uh diving back into doing some more orcs because I think those models would be really cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:34

Oh yeah, they're they're really cool models for sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:37

So I am looking forward to doing that. I'm looking forward to getting my orcs back up and building building force of that. Might take me a little while though, so I probably I want to do some practice games with uh my knights first.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:46

And that that makes sense, yeah. Cause uh we've obviously got the the grand narrative in August, I want to say. Uh so I'm glad my uh custody survived the Legends cult because they're all still viable. They haven't taken any of the Forge World units off to Legends, uh, which would be my worry, because then I'd have had to scrape together probably some other unit uh to make up a full full army uh for that event. Um yeah, it's interesting that it feels like my army hasn't really changed how it like plays, like because obviously the the rules haven't really changed a huge amount. I don't really I can't really use the any of the new attachments because I don't just don't have those units in any particular numbers to make it more viable. So for me, specifically, at least with the Thunder Warriors slash custodias, it hasn't really changed all that much. But what will be interesting is the area terrain, the terrain layout, playing on those. It feels like there's a lot more setup and hide it, and things like the hidden mechanic will be really interesting to sort of understand how that works once you start playing the game a bit more. As you say, I think the app's done a really good job for the most part. It looks really good. Uh be keen to use that for like sharing roster uh when we play games and also doing all the score in that app in one place will be very uh interesting uh and probably useful rather than having to flick between apps. Um I think that would be cool. Um yeah, I think overall I'm really positive about it and kind of keen to get some get some games in and try things out. Yeah, so overall I think they've done they've done a pretty good job, but there's been a few little niggles like area terrain being sold out. Um, you know, they maybe haven't done a great job when it comes to revealing some of the rules or the order in which they showed off rules because they were just drip feeding stuff, so you were never getting the full contact uh behind it. I assume in the next week or two there'd probably be like a bit more of an FAQ clarify some weird niche rules. I've already seen people on like TikTok and stuff going, I've broken the pil-in phase and I've found out how to cheat the system because they've got some exploits that they can do. So I imagine there'd be FAQs to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:58

Yeah, in preparation for this film, I was looking on Goonhammer and they had an article saying there is that they have found a rule which breaks 11th edition. However, I have to subscribe to their Patreon to know what that is. So I don't so I won't know so I won't know what how to break 11th edition because I'm not going to subscribe to their Patreon after they so cruelly diservice to my to my list when I can when I came second in an event.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:22

Yes, I I remember they di dissed it. Yeah, what's this doing second? Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:27

Uh no, I just how did this get into the final? Yeah, well, uh I have not I have not forgotten Goonhammer.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:34

Um yeah, I think the one sort of rules exploit I sort of discovered when I was going through the rules was if you have a unit like directly behind another unit, and for some reason if you get uh if you don't roll high enough, well, because you can't get into combat with basically there's a weird thing where you could you can charge a unit but you can't pile in or you can't charge all the way into being base with them because you would then also be in combat with the unit that's directly behind. And you can't be in combat with them because they were say too far out of your roll range or whatever, like, or you can physically get there. So there's some like weird niche things around combat there, and because combat's all movement-based where you get all the fiddly stuff, and things like the was it overrun and stuff will be interesting to start playing that to see how that how that will work. So, yeah, there's those little things, but overall, really positive. Keen to basically I'm really keen to play the game. I'm just annoyed I can't play it right now because while we have a lot of the rule in the and now we've actually got the app, we can sort of we can actually technically play a game with the card. I'm like, well, I'm still missing the area terrain. Technically play it in its truest sense, and while you could muddle through with some printouts or something, it feels like it might just be worth holding off until we can get an official set or something.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:53

And if anyone would advise on what the if the wibbly bits are important or not, that would be a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:57

Yeah, Common Games Workshop. Answer Richard directly. What's the deal with the wibbly bits? Yeah, are they are they mandatory? What or how's this work? Yeah, that would be interesting to know. Yeah, well, on that uh note, uh Wibbly bits, uh, we will go into a transitional noise and we will end uh mostly the show then. Um so yeah, thank you very much for coming on, Richard. Uh I appreciate it. Any any final words?

SPEAKER_02 2:26:20

Any final words? Yeah, Ken Switch, can you please f uh just look at the SoAssis Might Asheron and give it a gun that works? Come on. It's ter it does it it's it's dumb. I have to proxy it as a castigator, because that's the only good one of those mites. No, as a minor thing, no, otherwise, uh no, I I am really excited for 11th edition. I didn't I was dubious if I would be because I wasn't too excited about temp, but this edition, I am really excited for it. I feel there's like a going back to basics side of things and just a gen major shout out to the the app, to the people making the app. The way the way that you can share your list with someone is magical. Like that's one that's a huge deal. Absolutely brilliant. The fact that you're when you're when you're playing any event, especially, it's like you can just instantly share your list with your opponent, and I'm not having to constantly ask them, have you got any gotcha stratagems? Because I thought, I know, I can look myself. It's it's because I don't know about other people. Whenever I play opponent, I'll quickly make their list in my own app so I've got it to hand. And that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:11

I guess I guess there's so many if there's gotchas, you still might not notice them because you might not see the combos or synjies, but I like that at least you can go. Rather than asking them, oh, what's your toughness? You can be like, oh, let me just quickly check. Okay, cool. Now I know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:25

It's it should speed up so much of a game because you don't have in that you know, in theory don't have to do the the theatre of I'm going to explain every single part of my army, which will be which will likely go over your head a little bit, and then you do the same back to me. We can just get on with the game because we're gonna be able to do that. Because that just wastes so much time. And you can tell you can tell, you know, oh, this is uh this is this unit, it's attached to this unit. It's really nice the improvements they've made to the app. Uh the only thing that's obviously missing is uh cla there's clarity on the mission objectives, how they how how they work, are they in there and legends and legends and and only minor thing, only one thing I would say is only because I've been to I've I'm going to the narrative event in Wales, and apparently at the time in the current rules pack, which is probably going to be changed shortly, it says you could it said you could take Crucible Champions with you, but the app does not support Crucible Champions. So uh I'm just wanting to give that thing. Crucible of champions? That's where you can make your that's where you can make your own custom characters. Oh which you can't do in the app. You which you can't completely do it in the app. It is, I do think it's possibly a niche thing, so maybe it's something that they won't ever add into the main app.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:24

Yeah, I think so, because I think the But it is a thing. They did like a tournament events pack which specifically talks about rules for like the main way of playing the Dominatus deck, the uh doubles, because that's a popular format. And I think the Yeah, it's interesting because that narrative event sits outside maybe of a lot of the standard sorts of games because they do it once or twice a year, and it's mostly games workshop specific. Uh so maybe they just won't do the scoring in the well, they m they might not even do those missions, they might do just custom missions, in which case you don't need the app because you don't need the app for score. It might not be on BCP, so it might be it's just they're doing the rank.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:05

No, scoring built into the app now. Brilliant. Yeah, that's absolutely brilliant for that. No, the only the only reason I mentioned the crucible thing is because you want to have every possible fun piece of function functionality in that app. So having legends in there is important, so there's no reason for anyone to go elsewhere. Having the missions that you can browse as you're on my phone, having them in the app so you don't have to go to a separate website is really important for that app. And I do know that new recruit does have the crucible stuff in there. So that's just it does have a yeah, the new new recruit does have the crucible stuff in there. Because I was messing around trying to put uh put together potential lists for the narrative. And they had and that's easy to do because you can mess because the crucible rules are in New Recruit, but they're not in the 40k app. So just it might be in the thing because game, I don't know how long the crucible rules are gonna be relevant in 40k.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:48

Well all addition, they say all addition. Yeah, let's make sense.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:54

Let's let's get in there, let's get back to the book.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:55

I think it's also it's like the the barriers to entry, right? So the reason why I've always said I I want legends in there is because it just makes me unable to play Legends in 40k unless I'm using another app or I'm being super old school and printing things out, and it's a bit like that's really inconvenient. It's like the convenience of having Legends in the official Warhammer app means you you you you Games Workshop want me to buy a Warhammer Plus subscription, so therefore it wants me using their app. So that app should have more functionality than any other app, which yeah, now includes scoring, list building, list sharing, that's all good. Legends now, or eventually legends in theory, fantastic. All singing and all dancing, and yeah, as you say, things crucibles of champions would just be you know a nice cherry on top. So it would be really cool. Could not could not agree more. Okay, brilliant. Well, on that note, we're we're going to the end of the show. Transitional noise.

5 Star Review

SPEAKER_01 2:30:56

We're doing a five-star review. We didn't have time to do one last episode, but we've got one this time, and it's come all the way from Apple Podcasts of the United States. Isn't that going to be interesting? From a guy called SunGuy 878. He says, Apple Podcasts from the Americas. Redoing my five-star review because Phil just did a solo three-hour show on the Armageddon book. An amazing feat. I love this show. Even though he thinks it's rambling, I have no one to talk 40k with. My friends and family think it's a weird hobby, and they're right. But even though it's a one-sided conversation, it's nice to have like-minded people talk about the hobby that we love. Keep up the amazing work. Uh so thank you very much, SumGuy878. I appreciate uh that you enjoy even the rambling solo shows that happen from time to time. Um, I it's very sad to hear that you don't have any friends to talk 40k with. You should rope your friends and family into 40k. Make them play games with you, make them stand there and roll dice, even if you're doing everything else. I think that's probably for the best. Uh, and you know, worst case scenario, just keep listening to this show and these episodes. Um, it's greatly appreciated. And I'm glad you're enjoying uh the Dan La shows as much as I'm sure you enjoyed also the Dan shows as well. Uh so thank you very much. If you're anyone else like some guy 878 and would like to support the show, you can leave a five-star review on all good five-star review places, such as Apple Podcasts, uh, YouTube in the comments, um, audible. Uh, I don't think you can do Spotify, but you can leave five stars there, I believe. Um, but I'll try and pick them up where best I can. It's a great way to support the show. You can also send this episode to a friend just to just to make them listen to it. Uh spread the word, I think is the greatest thing that people could do, probably to support the show more than anything else. So anything like that would be greatly appreciated. Like, comment, all the usual social media stuff. Uh, you can also buy some merch from Red Level, which are linked in the description of each episode. And you can also be an extra special supporter by backing me over on Patreon, and all of that money goes towards supporting the show, buying the books that we'll talk about at some point in the future. Yeah, so that's all greatly appreciated. Uh, thank you very much. Do support the show where possible. And if you can't do anything other than just watch along or listen along, uh, I appreciate that just as much as well. So thank you very much. Uh, with that all said and done, we'll go to a brief outro. So let's do a quick transitional noise.

Outro

SPEAKER_01 2:33:55

So it's the end of the show, and I just wanted to wrap it up this time with a little bit of an outro. Because uh last episode I sort of run out of time to do any of this, so I thought it would be good just to catch you guys up on what's been going on in the world of hobbying and potentially talk about some ideas for future episodes. Uh, and if you do have any ideas for future episodes, please do just let me know, drop me a comment or just message me directly. I'd love to hear about what you guys would also like to see as topics for future episodes. Um, lately I've been doing some hobbying, but not a huge amount. Uh, you have to excuse me, it is absolutely boiling in this shed today. The brief rain interlude that we had for the last week or so has disappeared and it's become scorching hot. It's like 27 plus degrees uh in this shed. Back to the conditions of needing uh aircom. Uh yeah, so I've done some hobbying on a sort of a personal project. Um, so I finished the Inquisitor for the 500 Worlds, uh, finished the 500 Worlds campaign. That was very good. Hopefully, I'll talk about that in a bit more detail, maybe in the next episode. Um, but then in terms of actual hobbying of miniatures, I've been doing some work for my Wastelands game, which was a project I started many years ago. Um basically it's a skirmish Mad Max-esque style post-apocalyptic game. And I've been writing the rules for many years, uh, but for the last few months I've been trying quite hard to sort of not necessarily finalize them, but just write them all out and get them to a point where I can play test them. But ideally, rather than just using tokens, I wanted to playtest them with some miniatures. Uh, so I've been uh making some miniatures uh for that uh game system for want of a better word. Uh so here's one of them uh that I've done, if you can see. Uh, this is like a runner character. Um basically you can note lots of pistols, uh sort of more realistically proportioned than normal Games Workshop stuff. Uh this guy's carrying a jerry can and lots of backpacks, um survival gear, that sort of thing. That's sort of like the general theme. Based on the Traitor Guard miniatures from Blackstone Fortress, uh, in terms of this one in particular, uh, and he's gonna be a raider type uh model. So it was like a Traitor Guard mini uh converted up and sort of reduced the spikes in size for the most part, but I liked the sort of motorbike aesthetic that they had. Uh so that's what I've been doing for those guys. I've done about four of them so far that I've not actually posted any pictures off anywhere, and I'm currently uh working on a biker guy as well. So I'm trying to hopefully get that done sometime soon, basically. Uh so that's in terms of actual doing some model making. Uh haven't played any games, was hoping to have a game with Tim tomorrow, but he's busy, sadly. That was going to be Age of Sigmar base. Me and him have been on a little hype train of weirdly not 40k. Um so for a few weeks ago, we were talking about um Ogre Moore tribes for Age of Sigma, doing like that as a potential doubles list, assuming Ogun Wall tribes get a new faction done sometime in the future. I like the idea of doing pirate-themed Ogunmore tribes. Uh, but then this week we've been talking ourselves into doing more heresy because the Mark V tactical marines are very cool. Uh, there's a new combat patrol sort of starter box. Um, I can't I think starter set maybe is what it's going to be called, um, of Mark V Marines with a contempt of dreadnought and I feel like oh, and it'll look at I think it's sort of like a Sicaran tank or something. Um and that looks pretty solid as a force, and we were thinking about just picking that up each and doing our own like mini-games of heresy with each other. Uh so we might do that. I I think we're quite excited about it. I'm keen to do Sons of Horus, he's quite keen to do Night Lords. I'm sort of keen to also do Night Lords because of the uh Space Marine that was on the base of my Inquisitor. I painted up in a Night Lords scheme, and I thought a very sort of almost standard, non-chaosified version of Night Haunt would look not Nighthaunt, Night Lords. Get it right. Although ironically, after listening to an audio book this week, I discovered that Kers is actually called the Night Haunter. So it's interesting. Again, games watch up recycling words potentially. Um maybe that's one of the reasons why I'm getting those two names mixed up. But yeah, the Night Lords, less chaosified, look quite cool, I think. So I'd almost be tempted to have an excuse to do a unit of them. Maybe as heresy, maybe for 40k, some kind of lost uh 40k chapter would also be fun. But potentially, yeah, a little unit of heresy, uh, which is odd because I think doing heresy and new space marines for a Lymph Edition alongside each other would be quite difficult. Um, so maybe the heresy stuff will be a later project. Um, yeah, for a Lemphed, I really want to just get some games done, but as we talked about in the main episode, like the main part of it, it's actually going to be quite difficult without those area terrains. Um, although it sounds like what's in chapter approved, having done a little bit of research, or which has done a little bit of research since we recorded, it's a bit different from what they give you in the app. So in the app, you get the terrain layouts uh with the prescribed this is where stuff goes, and it's very tournament-specific layouts. You don't get that in chapter approved by the sounds of it. It's a bit more just put some terrain down around some objective markers and that counts. So maybe the chapter-approved deck weirdly is different from the app and is more casual-based, so you can just play by putting stuff down, which I think is good and healthy for the game. But I worry that people will might just be a little bit too obsessed about playing the correct way of playing, which will mean using the area terrain mats and things like that. But still would be nice to have just in general, just to try out that game format, even if after a few games I'm like, oh, I just want to do the casual version and just put down my nice terrain. Um, so that's stuff to do uh at some point. So that'd be good to do. Uh there's loads of 40k stuff I could do. I could do more Thunder Warriors, I'd like to do, I'd definitely like to do more Space Marines, I think. Um I've always had ideas about going back to my Krieg army and doing some more models for that, but I just don't think I will. I feel like that's a much more like historical army now that I will use for playing older editions of the game rather than newer editions. Although I do have the idea of doing a Tempestus Scion's army or mini army using the Grenadier models. So I might do that at some point, and that would still be future compatible with the current editions of the game, whereas a lot of the older models just don't really work. Although with Legends coming back, then maybe it's a bit more doable depending on how viable their rules are and their points and things like that. So that's something to also look at. So I think there's quite a bit of 40k stuff to do. Still want to build the boarding actions terrain, still want to just build regular terrain. I've spent quite a long time looking at mats and gaming mats for my very sparse gaming table behind me if you're watching on YouTube. Um so there's a couple of cool ones from gamesmat.eu or game mats, game mat.eu. Yeah, I don't think the S is in there. Um GameMat.eu. Uh there's a couple of cool double-sided ones, but the one I like the look of the most is on pre-order for at least another month. So I feel like I might hold off on that one and then get another one um somewhere else in the meantime. And then the other company that I really like the look of is PWorks War Games, they have some really nice mats as well, and are sort of similarly priced, I think, but it feels like they're really like quite detailed in terms of um their mats, and they've got a really cool like 3D effect when you look at them, at least in their online videos. So potentially I might try and get one of those. They've got a few cool like Wasteland ones. I'm sort of torn, so obviously I've got a 6x4 gaming table, mostly for my 6x4 tiles. Now, do I get a 6x4 gaming mat? I'm sort of thinking not, and I'll get a 60x44, like the standard AOS 40k gaming size, and that's sort of why I wanted the double-sided one, because I could have one that's more um green, that's more AOS-ified, and then on the other side it's more sort of barren, either desert or urban, sort of city rubble sort of size. So I could have one side for 40k, one for AOS. Um, and I think the best combination on game app.eu, like they didn't do like in terms of the best two sides, but there was a good compromise between one I like the look of. Um, whereas PWorks have some really good ones, but they're only single-sided. So maybe I'll pick up one of those to tide me over, and maybe that one is a six by four if I want to do something like heresy and to not use my gaming tiles, for example. Uh, and then I could use that for games of 40k and just mark out the edges, and then I can get double-sided matte as well. Maybe. I don't know if that's mad. Um, if anyone's got some comments about you know good um mat recommendations, I'm I'm all ears. I'd love to hear what people say. Let me know down in the comments your recommendations. Um yeah, because it doesn't seem like a huge amount of people talk about them all that much. Like there's been the other review video here and there, a lot of them are quite old. Uh yeah, sort of like a more modern contemporary answer. And I think I feel like everyone's moved over to game games mats as a thing now. And as much as I sort of aren't a huge fan of the concept, just the speed of having them is quite useful. And I've got my gaming towers when they're ready, but I sort of feel like I also need some standard stuff for regular 40k and regular AOS. So that's something I've also been looking at this week. Uh yeah, I mean I I think that's it in terms of stuff to talk about um for now. Looking forward to getting my hand on the actual Armageddon box. Hopefully, we'll talk about the joy and excitement of actually looking through some of that uh in a future episode. Uh, and again, if you enjoy your Armageddon box and you've got it, let me know in the comments. Let me know what you think and or just reach out to me directly. Either works very fine. Um, yeah, enjoy enjoy hobbying, which you might be doing as you're listening. Enjoy your hobby this week is a great time for 40k. It's also a big time for AOS with the General's Handbook coming in like a couple of weeks. Like pre-order, I think, is maybe tomorrow maybe today at the time of listening. Uh it's pretty soon. So that'll be also another interesting thing to uh talk about. If though if you want to listen to Aegis Sigma content, I can produce it. Uh, but if not, I will maybe do more 40k stuff. Uh yeah. That that's my end of end of a little ramble. Um goodbye, everyone. Enjoy the rest of your week, weekend, evening, whatever you might be doing. Enjoy. Bye bye. Bye bye, everyone. Goodbye.